es/sd standards

In lay terms? Figure 1 SD is roughly equal to 1" of vertical drift at 1000 yards. So a 10 SD would be 10" of vertical dispersion. Roughly. Thats the important part. You can roughly math out the rest for other distances.

Myself? Match ammo should be around 5. I shoot for sub 20 for blaster ammo for my ARs. Pistol I like to be at at 20, but 30 is probably good enough for an average shooter at close range.
 
Here's a thought. It might matter when the vertical dispersion exceeds typical group size at a given distance. Take your ballistic numbers of extreme spread and plug that into a trajectory drift calculator like the one below. Compare the difference in the drop of the fastest bullet to that of the slowest bullet. If that difference starts to exceed the typical group size, then it might matter. But keep in mind that accuracy has many influences, and that's why groups are round (or other shapes) and not just vertically aligned.

 
In lay terms? Figure 1 SD is roughly equal to 1" of vertical drift at 1000 yards. So a 10 SD would be 10" of vertical dispersion. Roughly. Thats the important part. You can roughly math out the rest for other distances.

Myself? Match ammo should be around 5. I shoot for sub 20 for blaster ammo for my ARs. Pistol I like to be at at 20, but 30 is probably good enough for an average shooter at close range.

Testing has shown that there is no correlation between sd/es and group size at 25 yards from a typical pistol.

 
I get emails from precision rifle blog from time to time, and find them to be interesting and sometimes informative. This is one that I saved. The guy does monte carlo simulations of group sizes at distance to see how various factors affect them. Consistent ammo velocity, expressed in SD, is one thing that he considers.


ETA: I probably should have posted this issue, that was focused on SD:

 
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Part of what I would like to understand is what variables make es/sd important or irrelevant.

Distance, speed leading to the resulting trajectory and expectations.

Sometimes it can matter a lot even up close. You can watch the impacts move with some PCP tunes for example as close as 100 yards, as the pressure drops.

image.jpg
 
Testing has shown that there is no correlation between sd/es and group size at 25 yards from a typical pistol.

But aiming for a reasonable ES/SD numbers is not a bad thing, despite it not being much of a factor at close range with handguns. I like to shoot handguns at longer distances, so the ES does matter, and that's easy to test. I learned about ES decades ago when shooting my .38 Spl target loads at 300 yards, it became very apparent right away that I needed more consistent ammo.

I'm never going to disparage someone looking for small ED/SD numbers for their handgun loads. We all should be trying for consistency in our loads and procedures.
 
There is no universal metric. Yes, it is based on a set of factors/variables. I am trying to figure out what the variable are, or where ED/sd are a critical factor. kinds of like a flow chart, at x yards, for y application, a SD of z or better is needed.

There is not really an inflection point where bullets have been traveling along, then suddenly get a text message that some need to veer off course one direction and some need to veer off course another. The bullet is constantly in flight, and is constantly experiencing gravity. The bullets traveling slightly faster than others will experience slightly less time under the force of gravity, and will strike higher than those traveling faster - but compound error stats show us that it is extremely rare that the “slow shot” will also correspond to the “low shot” in the inherent cone of fire (raw group size), so there is a dilution effect, in a manner of speaking, for all compounding error functions. We know that:

1) some folks won’t care about certain degree of error contribution for their task

2) some folks won’t shoot well enough for velocity error contribution to group size at distance to be noticeable (sensitivity analysis described below)

3) there are trending spectra where raw group size initially dominates group size when gravitational contribution error, velocity variability error, isn’t yet substantially large to be noticeable (again, sensitivity analysis), but we know eventually downrange the contribution matters

4) The worse the relative variability of any given error contributor, the more likely it will be to dominate the total error. So bigger velocity variability becomes more notable in the group size earlier than lesser variability (see my target comparison photo on page 1)

So let’s run through the math here on how much velocity variability contributes to bullet strike variability - aka, vertical group size.

The Litz WEZ Analysis tool used for Cal’s articles at PRB is an illustrative tool for these compounding errors. The simulator calculates trajectory influence for a normally distributed velocity set, then applies that randomly with compounding errors like raw group size, range mis-estimation, BC variability, POA wobble, etc.

Simplified and expressed, I know 30fps ES on my PRS match cartridges corresponds to a maximum of 6” at 1000 yards in POTENTIAL vertical dispersion. In general, I also know that a 30fps ES corresponds typically to a ~7.5fps SD. High single digits, but single digits. But doing a simple RSS regression on a raw 1/2moa rifle plus .6moa velocity spread potential, that presents as an expected 7.8” group, instead of a 5” group. So the velocity variability added over 50% more vertical to my simulated group. If I double that SD to an SD of 15, which corresponds to an ES of ~60, then my maximum potential velocity contribution increases to 11”, and again, the RSS compounding error prediction increases to 12” expected group size, for a raw 1/2moa rifle, this is 7” more vertical dispersion at 1000yrds than the raw 100yrd group would predict, more than doubling the group size, and revealing the velocity as the dominating vertical error contributor in that comparison.

So let’s play with that a little in terms of sensitivity analysis and pertinence:

If I cut the rifle down to 1/4moa instead of half, the group shrinks to 11 1/4moa, only 3/4” smaller for what should have been a ~2.5” reduction. If I increase the rifle raw potential to 3/4moa instead of 1/2, the group grows to 13” instead of growing the 2.5” the raw precision increase would predict. The velocity contribution is the dominating error factor. In other words, with a 15SD, it really doesn’t matter if the load 1/2moa or 3/4moa raw 100yrd performance, my group size at 1000 will be dictated by the velocity inconsistency. Comparatively, if I have an SD of 7.5fps, contributing potential of 6” at 1000yrds, the difference between a 1/2moa raw rifle and a 3/4moa raw rifle becomes 9.5” vs. 6”, so the 5” predicted difference in 1000yrd group based on raw group size presents as 3.5” difference in reality. This means the raw precision remains to matter more in that load, and can actually influence the group size, opposed to being washed out by velocity variability in the 15SD case

And acknowledging here: this is talking about a difference between shooting 6” vs. 13” groups at 1000 yards. Alex Wheeler just shared results this weekend from Deep Creek where a guy with one of the rifles he built posted a ~4” aggregate (average of multiple groups), with a few 3.x” groups in the mix. Consistent bullet flight is EXTREMELY important for those folks. That dude can’t tolerate an extra 7” of vertical dispersion in his 3” group…

Also of note, in evaluating my load development data collected for certain rifles over the years, I have shown a correlation in the range of common charge weights that every kernel of powder contributes ~0.95fps to my velocity change. It also reveals that there are approximately 62.5 kernels of powder per grain, meaning loading precision to within one kernel, within 0.02grn which my dispenser will resolve, I am able to control my powder charge variability contribution to velocity variability to within +/-1fps. Other factors will remain to contribute to the velocity error, velocity variability, but I can at least control the powder charge variability contributor. If I were alternatively loading on a common brand powder dispenser with +/-0.1grn precision, I would have +/-6.2 kernels instead of +/-1kernel, and would contribute ~13fps potential velocity variability to my loads. Again, the same RSS compounding error sensitivity analysis can be done, showing that if my charge weight variability only contributes 2fps to my velocity variability instead of 13fps, my vertical control at 1000yrds is improved: in the trajectory sensitivity analysis above, 7.5fps SD vs. 15fps SD offered ~4” difference in group size at 1000, and this difference is showing ~11fps potential difference in ES, around 3fps SD. So simply charging on a Chargemaster vs. an AutoTrickler has potential to contribute around 2” extra vertical dispersion in a 1000yrd group. Again, for dudes shooting 4” aggregates, that 2” penalty just for choosing the wrong powder dispensing tool cannot be tolerated.

The same trajectory contribution can be calculated for other distances. At 1000, 7.5 SD predicts a max potential of .6moa increase vs. 1.1 for a 15fps SD, whereas at 600, 15fps predicts .4moa, and 7.5fps SD predicts only .2moa potential contribution - about an inch and a quarter at 600yrds. For a guy just banging 12” plates in their back 80 acres for fun, an extra 1 1/4” in their 600 yard group doesn’t matter much. For dudes shooting 2-4” groups at 600yrds for competition, yeah, that 1.25” matters a lot.

So no, there is no hard and fast “velocity SD has to be less than X to shoot Y distance,” and there is no distance which qualifies as “long range” for which velocity variability can be ignored. Only in short range do we have that luxury - OR in applications where we really don’t care about group size.
 
Testing has shown that there is no correlation between sd/es and group size at 25 yards from a typical pistol.

Correct. The real effects on pistol ammo with even an SD of 50 is miniscule at 10 yards, if you do the rough math as I laid out. I just prefer a sub 20 SD if I can achieve it while getting the velocity I desire with pistol ammo. When I load pistol ammo, I dont even target test it, I shoot them over the chrono into the berm. Desired velocity with best SD is the load I run. Im not a good enough pistol shooter that I can tell the difference between a 10 and 50 for SD. I just know with a 20 SD, the load is as consistent as I can likely make it for rotary dropped powder on a progressive into mixed headstamp brass.

Rifle at distances beyond about 400 yards? SD makes a huge difference, especially on a small 1/2 MOA target, which are what we routinely shoot at. The steels on my buddies range are a 1/2 IPSC, 2 MOA, 1 MOA and a 1/2 MOA at almost every distance, or as close as we can get with whoever we can get AR500/550 steel from for a decent price.
 
There is not really an inflection point where bullets have been traveling along, then suddenly get a text message that some need to veer off course one direction and some need to veer off course another. The bullet is constantly in flight, and is constantly experiencing gravity. The bullets traveling slightly faster than others will experience slightly less time under the force of gravity, and will strike higher than those traveling faster - but compound error stats show us that it is extremely rare that the “slow shot” will also correspond to the “low shot” in the inherent cone of fire (raw group size), so there is a dilution effect, in a manner of speaking, for all compounding error functions. We know that:

1) some folks won’t care about certain degree of error contribution for their task

2) some folks won’t shoot well enough for velocity error contribution to group size at distance to be noticeable (sensitivity analysis described below)

3) there are trending spectra where raw group size initially dominates group size when gravitational contribution error, velocity variability error, isn’t yet substantially large to be noticeable (again, sensitivity analysis), but we know eventually downrange the contribution matters

4) The worse the relative variability of any given error contributor, the more likely it will be to dominate the total error. So bigger velocity variability becomes more notable in the group size earlier than lesser variability (see my target comparison photo on page 1)

So let’s run through the math here on how much velocity variability contributes to bullet strike variability - aka, vertical group size.

The Litz WEZ Analysis tool used for Cal’s articles at PRB is an illustrative tool for these compounding errors. The simulator calculates trajectory influence for a normally distributed velocity set, then applies that randomly with compounding errors like raw group size, range mis-estimation, BC variability, POA wobble, etc.

Simplified and expressed, I know 30fps ES on my PRS match cartridges corresponds to a maximum of 6” at 1000 yards in POTENTIAL vertical dispersion. In general, I also know that a 30fps ES corresponds typically to a ~7.5fps SD. High single digits, but single digits. But doing a simple RSS regression on a raw 1/2moa rifle plus .6moa velocity spread potential, that presents as an expected 7.8” group, instead of a 5” group. So the velocity variability added over 50% more vertical to my simulated group. If I double that SD to an SD of 15, which corresponds to an ES of ~60, then my maximum potential velocity contribution increases to 11”, and again, the RSS compounding error prediction increases to 12” expected group size, for a raw 1/2moa rifle, this is 7” more vertical dispersion at 1000yrds than the raw 100yrd group would predict, more than doubling the group size, and revealing the velocity as the dominating vertical error contributor in that comparison.

So let’s play with that a little in terms of sensitivity analysis and pertinence:

If I cut the rifle down to 1/4moa instead of half, the group shrinks to 11 1/4moa, only 3/4” smaller for what should have been a ~2.5” reduction. If I increase the rifle raw potential to 3/4moa instead of 1/2, the group grows to 13” instead of growing the 2.5” the raw precision increase would predict. The velocity contribution is the dominating error factor. In other words, with a 15SD, it really doesn’t matter if the load 1/2moa or 3/4moa raw 100yrd performance, my group size at 1000 will be dictated by the velocity inconsistency. Comparatively, if I have an SD of 7.5fps, contributing potential of 6” at 1000yrds, the difference between a 1/2moa raw rifle and a 3/4moa raw rifle becomes 9.5” vs. 6”, so the 5” predicted difference in 1000yrd group based on raw group size presents as 3.5” difference in reality. This means the raw precision remains to matter more in that load, and can actually influence the group size, opposed to being washed out by velocity variability in the 15SD case

And acknowledging here: this is talking about a difference between shooting 6” vs. 13” groups at 1000 yards. Alex Wheeler just shared results this weekend from Deep Creek where a guy with one of the rifles he built posted a ~4” aggregate (average of multiple groups), with a few 3.x” groups in the mix. Consistent bullet flight is EXTREMELY important for those folks. That dude can’t tolerate an extra 7” of vertical dispersion in his 3” group…

Also of note, in evaluating my load development data collected for certain rifles over the years, I have shown a correlation in the range of common charge weights that every kernel of powder contributes ~0.95fps to my velocity change. It also reveals that there are approximately 62.5 kernels of powder per grain, meaning loading precision to within one kernel, within 0.02grn which my dispenser will resolve, I am able to control my powder charge variability contribution to velocity variability to within +/-1fps. Other factors will remain to contribute to the velocity error, velocity variability, but I can at least control the powder charge variability contributor. If I were alternatively loading on a common brand powder dispenser with +/-0.1grn precision, I would have +/-6.2 kernels instead of +/-1kernel, and would contribute ~13fps potential velocity variability to my loads. Again, the same RSS compounding error sensitivity analysis can be done, showing that if my charge weight variability only contributes 2fps to my velocity variability instead of 13fps, my vertical control at 1000yrds is improved: in the trajectory sensitivity analysis above, 7.5fps SD vs. 15fps SD offered ~4” difference in group size at 1000, and this difference is showing ~11fps potential difference in ES, around 3fps SD. So simply charging on a Chargemaster vs. an AutoTrickler has potential to contribute around 2” extra vertical dispersion in a 1000yrd group. Again, for dudes shooting 4” aggregates, that 2” penalty just for choosing the wrong powder dispensing tool cannot be tolerated.

The same trajectory contribution can be calculated for other distances. At 1000, 7.5 SD predicts a max potential of .6moa increase vs. 1.1 for a 15fps SD, whereas at 600, 15fps predicts .4moa, and 7.5fps SD predicts only .2moa potential contribution - about an inch and a quarter at 600yrds. For a guy just banging 12” plates in their back 80 acres for fun, an extra 1 1/4” in their 600 yard group doesn’t matter much. For dudes shooting 2-4” groups at 600yrds for competition, yeah, that 1.25” matters a lot.

So no, there is no hard and fast “velocity SD has to be less than X to shoot Y distance,” and there is no distance which qualifies as “long range” for which velocity variability can be ignored. Only in short range do we have that luxury - OR in applications where we really don’t care about group size.

Well put and much more refined than the way I laid it out. Im more of a "back of the bar coaster" math guy :)

This is ridiculous:
Alex Wheeler just shared results this weekend from Deep Creek where a guy with one of the rifles he built posted a ~4” aggregate (average of multiple groups), with a few 3.x” groups in the mix. Consistent bullet flight is EXTREMELY important for those folks. That dude can’t tolerate an extra 7” of vertical dispersion in his 3” group…"
 
So I have never been able to get a straight answer on this question. I have heard everything from single digits, to it does not matter. For those that do care about it, I can never seems to get a straight answer as to what they consider to be acceptable, what is bad, or what their target goal it.

While watching this video today, the creator stated that match ammo is supposed to have a SD of 15 or less. Right around the 6min mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsK2i1aMpVE

Is this correct? What are your target goals or what do you consider acceptable/unacceptable if your willing to share. are there any official military standards?

I also found this article stating match ammo is typically 10-15 or less, and standard ammo is 20-40.
https://trueshotammo.com/academy/what-is-match-grade-ammo/#:~:text=Match ammunition typically exhibits very,precision, especially at extended ranges.
A chronograph is a great diagnostic tool when there is a problem with your hand loads. If your handloads shoot to your accuracy standard then there is no problem and the only purpose for chronographIng your loads is to make sure they are under the max velocity because being over max velocity would be a sign of being over pressure.

So the first question you need to ask yourself is "What are you trying to accomplish?" Without a particular goal you are really just playing around with numbers.
 
Well put and much more refined than the way I laid it out. Im more of a "back of the bar coaster" math guy :)

Lol, thanks man. I think. For what it’s worth, this is what my bar coasters look like. I’ve spent my entire life in the presence of engineers and shooters, even before I became either myself - easier to do more precise math on my phone these days for the Root Sum of Squares instead of using memorized roots for quick and dirty math, but it’s all just multiplication and division of small numbers. A lot of fun nights when a team of us nerds start changing the world on bar napkins - which in my experience, is a pretty frequent occurrence.

Side story - as a remote/international asset for my entire career, it has been really common for me to have “people calls” to connect with team members across the country. For about 5 years, every Friday evening starting at 6 central and running until we all got bored (sometimes 1-2am), I had a standing informal call with teammates from all over the US - sometimes 2-3 people, sometimes 10-15. We’d all grab a beverage and an appropriate meal, and chat about anything and everything. After about a year, I started a microbrew subscription for the team to all have the same beers to taste together during the calls. We literally generated billions of dollars in revenue producing ideas during those calls. Fun times.

This is ridiculous:

No doubt. It is truly remarkable what LR BR guys like @JFrank are doing these days.
 
Rifle is definitely a whole different than pistol when it comes to SDs and long range.
The real effects on pistol ammo with even an SD of 50 is miniscule at 10 yards, if you do the rough math as I laid out.
My main concern on pistol SDs has to do with the chrono stage at a match. I keep track of the SDs from production runs and make sure I keep the PF higher than the minimum so I can pass that stage.
 
Rifle is definitely a whole different than pistol when it comes to SDs and long range.

My main concern on pistol SDs has to do with the chrono stage at a match. I keep track of the SDs from production runs and make sure I keep the PF higher than the minimum so I can pass that stage.
Absolutely. The difference in minor or major can be determined by a few FPS on the chronograph. I think that reasoning was probably why I started to loading my pistol to a certain velocity while still looking for a decent SD, worrying less about how accurate it was on a piece of paper at 50 ft. I just had to reality check myself "you simply arent good enough too see the difference" and stopped worrying about it.
 
The math does not work the way most people assume it does. MV variation is much less important than you might think in almost all cases.

Standard deviations add by the square root of the sum of the squares. Because of this, smaller sources of variation "wash out" in the sum, leaving only the strong sources of variation.

Folks often assume that an inch of vertical dispersion due to MV variation will add an inch to the vertical size of the group. It does not. For that to happen, the highest MV would have to occur when all other variables simultaneously align to put the shot at the top of the group and the lowest MV would have to coincide with the other variables putting the shot at the bottom of the group. That rarely happens.

To briefly answer the OP's question, I have an little sporter 223, definitely not a bench rester, that averages 5/8" groups at 100 yards. I can't find any detectable group size difference with good commercial ammo (generally about 30 FPS SD), pretty good handloads with 15-20 FPS SD, and very careful handloads with about 5 FPS SD.

SAAMI assumes that SD is 4% of MV. They deliberately set this percentage on the high side, which makes their safety calculations conservative. Most handloaders can beat that number handily.

Edited to correct an error: SAAMI assumes a 4% SD for peak pressure, not for MV.
 
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SAAMI assumes that SD is 4% of MV.
4% of MV ?
...or pressure?



(or am I mistaken in the definition/term being used for pressure?)






-- OR....
if velocity goes as the cube root of pressure variation, a pressure SD of 4%
would result in a velocity SD of about 12.5 fps for a 49,000psi cartridge.
 
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4% of MV ?
...or pressure?



(or am I mistaken in the definition/term being used for pressure?)






-- OR....
if velocity goes as the cube root of pressure variation, a pressure SD of 4%
would result in a velocity SD of about 12.5 fps for a 49,000psi cartridge.
Oooops. Good catch! SAAMI assumes that peak pressure, not MV, has an SD of 4%. So a cartridge with a peak pressure of 50 KPSI is assumed to have a standard deviation of 2 KPSI. Most us would be humiliated if we produced ammo that inconsistent, but the assumption makes a safer standard.
 
I strive for single digits. But like most of the others have said, it comes into play at longer ranges more than short ranges. Personally I feel that bullet runout is just as important! Thats another topic that can be argued/discussed about until.......................
 
calculations often get lost in the noise of the chaotic system being measured. best to shoot a few shots and confirm the calculations.

murf
In other words, Heisenberg was right. 😁🤣🤔

I agree.

I don’t think anyone is saying, go out of your way to make inconsistent reloads. Nor do I think anyone is suggesting that either the extreme spread of velocities or the standard deviation of measurements are foolish inconsistencies - such being the Hobgoblin of little minds - but what I at least am suggesting is that any inconsistencies, and any other negative factors, will show up in the form of evidence in cases, targets, chambers, barrels and behind the trigger feel long before any “numbers” indicate a problem. As has been pointed out, any reasonable analysis requires at least one hundred points of data; observations will reveal a problem within one or two samples. Together, for certain purposes, the two - observation and mechanics - can be very informative. Practical applications are still the only true test.
 
In other words, Heisenberg was right. 😁🤣🤔

I agree.

I don’t think anyone is saying, go out of your way to make inconsistent reloads. Nor do I think anyone is suggesting that either the extreme spread of velocities or the standard deviation of measurements are foolish inconsistencies - such being the Hobgoblin of little minds - but what I at least am suggesting is that any inconsistencies, and any other negative factors, will show up in the form of evidence in cases, targets, chambers, barrels and behind the trigger feel long before any “numbers” indicate a problem. As has been pointed out, any reasonable analysis requires at least one hundred points of data; observations will reveal a problem within one or two samples. Together, for certain purposes, the two - observation and mechanics - can be very informative. Practical applications are still the only true test.
Way I look at it, you need a systematic approach to hunt hobblins. I look at es/sd as a method to rule things out. So the question could be posited as, at what es/sd can you determine that it is not the cause of vertical dispersion and rule it out to confine the issue to other variables.
 
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