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Ethic implications with milsurps?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Phaethon, Mar 9, 2011.

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  1. Phaethon

    Phaethon Member

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    I recently picked up a vz.24 Mauser, Romanian contract - which I hope to be posting pictures of as soon as I can get my camera in short order. After admiring my rifle, I underwent my customary period of WWII research to learn more about it and the circumstances surrounding it.

    I, at some point, began reading about the Romanian's involvement in helping Nazi Germany exterminate the Jews, and how Romania's contribution to the Holocaust was the largest, second to Germany itself. After learning that there's a possibility my rifle could have been used to kill innocent Jewish people, I'm not sure how I feel about it. I've considered selling it.

    In the future I'll probably buy Polish or pre-Nazi Mausers instead. Does it trouble anyone else knowing that some of the weapons you hold were used to kill people, potentially to murder civilians?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  2. MrSpiffy

    MrSpiffy Member

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    You know, those are very interesting thoughts. And I can understand why those thoughts may be mixed or negative.

    I'd say, think of that gun more as a reminder of the past. It's not the gun that killed anyone. It was the Nazis and their allies, the people themselves, who did the killing. Yes, the gun was their instrument of choice, but I would keep it, shoot it, and reflect a bit on where it may have been to remind you of a bit of world history, even if it's a part of history we really do not enjoy hearing about. Without things like this, we forget. And it's when we forget, that history has a funny way of repeating itself.

    I have my Mosin-Nagant 91/30, and I enjoy it as a neat, highly-durable firearm. But I also enjoy it as a piece of our past that ought never to be forgotten or taken lightly.

    Again, shoot it. Enjoy it. And reflect on it. Remembering history is rarely, if ever, a bad thing.
     
  3. Birdmang

    Birdmang Member

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    I have some nazi guns and it doesn't bother me at all. I also have some US and Japanese guns that were in combat. They probably killed or shot at people as well. Its a tool and if the history is just forgotten, then it will repeat. I shoot the hell out of them all, you should do the same.

    If you don't like Nazi stuff thats great because it costs a lot more.
     
  4. XxWINxX94

    XxWINxX94 Member

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    Intriguing observation.

    While not all history is good history, it is still history. I own several WWII era handguns and rifles which were more than likely used to kill or harm one person or another. It is sad that things like the holocaust happen, but theres nothing we can do about it. Whats done is done and whats history is history.

    I find it more interesting than disturbing, but in my opinion, thats what adds character and uniqueness to my firearms.

    I have a WWI trench knife that has a dried blood stain still on the blade. I feel terrible for the individual who fell victim to it, but at the same time it makes the knife alot more interesting than just brass and metal.
     
  5. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    I own a M-1 Carbine my father brought back from the Korean War. It was no doubt used in the last part of WW2 as well. I always wondered who had carried in those wars, who were they? What had they done? What stories are there ... but of course inanimate objects don't talk.
    Yes it could have been used to kill.
    During the "assault weapon ban" when the libs were talking about civilian semiauto ARs and WASR-10s being "weapons of war" that had to be banned, I always had to laugh at the idiocity of the politicians; apparantly none of them were too concerned about the M-1 Carbine being one of those, under the law .... yet I had a gun that truly was a "weapon of war.":rolleyes:
     
  6. nathan

    nathan Member

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    Its only a tool to kill and destroy. The Chicoms bought M 91 30s from USSR in 1950s to fight UN and US troops at Chosin Reservoir. Then they donate those guns to VC s and NVAs to kill US and ARVN troops. Then some of those were brought back to USA as bringbacks. It mean nothing.
     
  7. Rancho Relaxo

    Rancho Relaxo Member

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    Of course, statistically there's probably a good chance that your rifle was kept in storage and never used. I figure you are buying a rifle, not the responsibility for what it may have been used for.
     
  8. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    You might end up with a Mosin that the Russians used to murder the 10,000 Polish Army Officers. " Katyn Forest massacre"
    Maybe you Romanian contract Mauser was captured by the anti-nazi freedom fighters and used in that way. Maybe both...

    There are a lot of Nazi marked Mausers that helped Israel become a country when they were given a second combat life. The Star of David appearing on the same rifle near the Third Reich Eagle. Their soldiers did not snivel.

    Just as the Israeli's also used BF-109 Messerschmidt's along side their Spitfires during their fight for independence. The pilots did not complain

    A shovel is still just a shovel,
    whether it digs graves or tends a garden...
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2011
  9. txhoghunter

    txhoghunter Member

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    It comes down to how you feel about it. The gun could have been used in that way, or it might not have been. But, getting rid of the gun does not change the history behind it.

    When it comes down to it, there has not been a war in which civilians were not killed. As much as we try to keep it from happening, war is hell, and there are things that just can't be controlled.

    It won't keep me from owning a rifle, it will just give that rifle a different story behind it than your others. It can be a teaching tool. Don't try to forget history, because as Birdmang said, it will repeat itself.
     
  10. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    I've got this old rifle, and sometimes I think about its past. My uncle bought it before I was born from a pawn shop and gave it to my dad.

    I've wondered if it ever did take a life, and I wonder if it was used for less than noble purposes. I know that I can never know the past of that rifle, but I can make sure that under my ownership, it will be used to teach marksmanship, and any lives taken by it will belong to rabbits, rats, or people who were inclined to hurt me and mine.

    Like I said, I'll never know what purpose it was used for, but I intend to make sure that it used to further liberty and responsiblity.

    Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
     
  11. Tinpig

    Tinpig Member

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    I live on land that was the home of Wampanoag Indians until the 17th Century. I still find their white quartz points wherever I dig. I'm not proud of the wars and treaties by which the Wampanoags were dispossessed of their land. But I can't thrash myself with guilt about things over which I have no control.

    Enjoy the rifle. You're not responsible for the actions of previous owners.

    Tinpig
     
  12. General Geoff

    General Geoff Member

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    I recently purchased a nazi-era FN P35 Hi-Power. It's pitted in some places and generally well-used. I know that this gun may potentially have been some SS officer's sidearm, and could conceivably have been used to execute innocent civilians at some point in its past.


    I consider it to be a visceral, sobering reminder of humanity's darkest hour. It's all-too easy to forget about our dark pages in history, but when I look at this pistol, with the eagle & swastika proof marks worn but plainly visible, it's an instant refresher on just how real history is, and that those who ignore it or become complacent, are doomed to repeat it.


    The gun itself holds no grudges, bears no malice, feels no regret, nor remorse. It did not have a choice but to be nazi proof-marked. It could not discriminate if indeed it was ever levelled and fired upon an innocent. It is merely an object, a relic of history with no mind, volition, or agenda of its own.
     
  13. nathan

    nathan Member

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    Same goes with many WW 2 vets who brought along captured samurais from dead Jap officers. Those could had been used to cut the heads of prisoners of Allied troops , innocent civilians, etc in their quest to conquer Asian lands.
     
  14. ReadyontheRight

    ReadyontheRight Member

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    What is the quote - 'those who do not understand history are doomed to repeat it' ?

    "History" is not some clean, schoolbook concept. It is real and dirty.

    IMHO, individual ownership of guns like yours have made history less dirty because we can now easily defend ourselves - unlike those who may have been at the wrong end of your gun.

    As you describe, your rifle is a reminder of how bad we can be.

    It can also be used to defend yourself, win a shooting competition or teach a kid how to shoot. You can also use the rifle as a historical link to educate that kid about WW2.

    So your rifle is a reminder of how good we can be.

    A gun is engineered wood, plastic and steel. At best, a gun is well-crafted and reliable. At worst, a gun is unreliable. A gun is a tool. A bad heart behind it may make it bad. Your heart makes a gun good or bad.
     
  15. country boy marksman

    country boy marksman Member

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    To quote a just about beat to death saying, "guns don't kill people, people kill people!" Seriously, just because a gun took a life doesn't mean there's anything bad about that gun. The person pulling the trigger is where the the evil resides, not in the gun itself. Wether it was used to kill Jews or not, it is still a Mauser, and is not evil or wrong in any way! I REALLY want to own a Mauser, I just have other things to buy first, but when I do, the last thing on my mind will be that. My dad wants a Garand, and if he bought one that was used in WWII or Korea, He would be proud to own a weapon that was used to protect our freedom. I have had friends ask this, and I always tell them the same thing: I don't have a problem with it, and if you have a problem with owning a gun used in a murder, or was used in the holoucaust, or even to save a life, feel free to give me the gun so that you can have a free conscience, knowing that you don't own a gun that took a life!

    If you don't like owning such a firearm, however, that's fine with me, no offense intended, just my $0.02!
     
  16. Beetle Bailey

    Beetle Bailey Member

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    I used to feel somewhat similiar to you as well. Then one day I decided to buy a RC Mauser 98k. It was a 1936 model and didn't have swastikas on it, but it may well have been used to commit evil acts all the way up until 1945. At any rate, I didn't own it to honor the Nazis. I am not one of their fans. I did use the rifle to blast steel plates and I did share it with anyone who wanted to shoot it.

    Thing is, good or bad, history needs to be remembered. People need to understand that being unarmed means you are at the mercy of those who are armed. And that human beings unfortunately truly are capable of extreme evil. If people are able to hold an actual WWII era Mauser in their hands, it makes the history lesson more real, more memorable to them.

    Sadly, I no longer own that particular Mauser and do miss it. It's current owner's family is from Russia and so the historical significance of the rifle is still appreciated but to be honest I kinda wish I could buy it back from him.

    So I say keep your Romanian Mauser. The fact that you bought it means you now know more about Romania's history and connection to the holocaust. That's not a bad thing.
     
  17. Remo223

    Remo223 member

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    Frankly I don't understand your "ethics implications" one iota. No offense but it actually sounds like jibberish to me. Are you saying there is something evil about a rifle? A rifle is an inanimate object. Sheesh, even the person that used the rifle to shoot someone in a war in not at fault. He is a soldier following orders.

    What would you say to an old german soldier that served in the nazi military? Or the japanese army. I'm almost scared to ask. They're just people, man. just like you and me. And that rifle is just a rifle, just like any other rifle.
     
  18. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    I own a used Dodge pickup. I don't know what the original owners did with it. Did they use it to deliver drugs? Did someone have pre-marital sex in the back seat? Did they use it to pull a stolen trialer?
    Regarding your rifle, history is history. I'm like Remo....having a bit of a hard time understanding "ethical implications" with a 60+ year old inanimate object.
    35W
     
  19. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Exactly! It's an inanimate object. It has no soul and carries no guilt or blame. Aren't we in a constant battle with people who like to blame inanimate objects for the actions of individuals???
     
  20. snake284

    snake284 Member

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    Not really, the rifle is an inantament object and didn't kill anyone. It was the slimeball nut behind the trigger that did the killing. Heck if I sold all my milsurps that could have killed innocents, I wouldn't have any left. I have two Garands, and even though they were most likely issued to U.S. troops can you guaranty that the user didn't waste a German farmer? I have an 03-A3 made in 1942. Can you guaranty me it's user didn't waste an innocent Frenchman or Dutchman by mistake? I also have a 1917 Eddystone U.S. Enfield. Can you guaranty it never killed an innocent person back in the war to end all wars? And if that ain't all, I have 4 Yugo 24/47 Mausers that were made behind the Iron Curtain. Can you guaranty me that some Soviet didn't use one of them or maybe all four to kill innocent people? No you can't. We have no idea where any of those rifles went and what they did, or who was carrying them. But even if I did, I wouldn't get wound up over it because like I already said, the rifle didn't purposly kill anyone. It was the guy carrying it and the rifle had no say in the matter. Also, it may not have killed any innocents. It may have been on the Eastern front in the hands of some poor slob trying to keep his testicals from freezing off. Take your Mauser and enjoy it. Treat it as the valuable piece of history it is. Don't let it haunt you.
     
  21. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    When I was in the process of buying my Hungarian M-44, I had zero knowledge of the '56 Communist revolt. After I received the rifle, I found various clues to hint at it's actually use in combat, from the expected wear and tear of a non-refurbished rifle to the hash marks and soldiers name carved into the stock. I don't know on which side the rifle was used, communist or otherwise, but it is a very sobering reminder of how war is waged and that people die. As if I needed another reminder.
    But, as others have said, the rifle is incapable of doing anything independant of the wielder.
     
  22. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    On that note you can never know for sure that the used S&W .38Spl you just picked up from the local gunshop was not used to murder a whole family 50yrs ago. It would be equally silly to worry about such a thing.
     
  23. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Lots of Nazi or other extremist group items were/are preserved. They are historically significant. And items are neither good nor evil.

    I look at these as fascinating items from the past regardless of what the owners did with them.
     
  24. Sky

    Sky Member

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    I do not care if the weapon is a virgin or used to work the bars and streets! I care how it works for me.

    Big fire fight BGs dead. Weapons secured. Some brought back that were used to shoot you and your friends. It is a tool and if it got you or your friends then it must work pretty good. Sounds like something that might come in handy one day! Weapons are not alive and do not have memories of deeds done past. Only their users retain those memories.
     
  25. Andrew Wyatt

    Andrew Wyatt Member

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    Get a garand. That should balance you out.
     
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