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EUGunBan: Push for 2A in the Czech Republic

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Snejdarek, Dec 16, 2016.

?

Between Czech and Swiss model, which one do you consider better?

  1. Switzerland: generally easier access to firearms, but forget concealed carry

  2. Czech Republic: higher innitial hurdle - must gain license first, but shall issue concealed carry

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. everydefense

    everydefense Member

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    Better late than never??
     
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  2. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    The beauty is home. I was lucky enough to get to the seller first when his batch of 6 arrived back from the proofing house and had opportunity to choose which one I want. No Wehrmacht chicken sign, no swastikas on my 1928 gun; also, someone will be quite unhappy about the state of his gas piston rod on his late 30s gun... while his spotless one sits within my gun.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Anyway, back to the point of this thread: it is not only modified to semi-auto, but given also a new fresh set of serial numbers all around. Meanwhile the vz.58 sold by CZ retains its original serials. Which probably explains why the seller of the ZB.26 claimed that legally, he sells a new semi-auto gun, while the CZ shop claims that theirs is modification falling under the EU Gun Ban.

    New serial on the barrel (out of sight when assembled):
    [​IMG]

    New serial on the lower (out of sight when assembled):
    [​IMG]

    Few observations after having spent 3 hours getting the lube out and oil in without having shot it:
    - the gun itself is quite light. I opted to carry it in bag on my back through Prague due to nice weather instead of using car in the rush hour (also seller is close to my flat) and I didn't break a sweat
    - I am not that knowledgeable about guns or old guns, but apart from wood, which is a bit weathered but still fine, it looks in a really great shape
    - the take down procedure is unbelievably similar to that of piston AR
    - the fire selector has SAFE-SEMI-FULL AUTO options (or 0-1-20 as the engineers marked it back in 1928) with the last one now becoming another SAFE, so personally I take the loss of full auto as acceptable price for avoiding the hassle involved in getting select fire in the Czech Republic (which is may issue)
    - unfortunately the proofing authority required that the front takedown pin is secured in, so there is limited access to fire selector internals and I can't completely separate the lower from the upper

    All in all I am really happy with the purchase. I will still try to get ZB.30-37 - the problem is that they are priced at 1/3 of ZB.26 and the seller told me he already has orders for 300 but manages to "produce" only about 50 a month. UK.59 purchase should be straightforward though.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
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  3. everydefense

    everydefense Member

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    Nice rifle! What's 7.92×57mm Mauser ammo availability like there? I can't say I've ever seen it on the shelves, here. I'm guessing due to it being an old German military round it should be much more common in Europe than here in the US.
     
  4. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    No problem getting one, just the price that is at about 80c - 1USD - a bit steep for me. One more reason not weep about the loss of full auto.
     
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  5. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    UPDATE:

    The Directive was published in official journal today: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:32017L0853

    It will become effective in 20 days. The national states will then have 15 months to implement it into their own legal systems (i.e. pass local laws that conform to the minimum standard set by the Directive).

    Directive's deadline grandfathering clause will close on 13 June. I.e., if implemented properly, national laws should not allow possession of prohibited weapons that were registered after this date (unless other exception for possession applies).

    I was registering my S-ZB 26 today. The cop noted that the number of people registering new guns seem to be declining now - most probably that the run on the shops in the previous months led to most desirable semi-auto rifles being sold out.

    Getting vz.58 is next to impossible now, all good AK are gone (i.e. only Polish or Romanian left on the shelves), only higher priced AR left to buy. Semi-auto ZB 26 and ZB 30-37 all sold out, the same as UK.59. I could go on and on but it is mostly the same story. If you call around a few LGS to get "good stuff" you are left hanging out on the waiting list to get to the real waiting list.
     
  6. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    I got this private message and I thought some of you guys might be also interested in reading the answer, so here it goes:

    Situation in Europe: SHTF in most countries. In France, the outgoing Government is already tightening the screws. I expect most governments to follow the suit. It has for years been extremely popular with national politicians in Europe to enact unpopular laws while claiming it comes from the EU. The same can be expected as outcome of this Directive, as if it wasn't bad enough on its own.

    Switzerland: The gun folk over there seem to be working hard towards having referendum on throwing the Directive out. That would probably not only lead to Switzerland having to leave the Schengen, but probably also several more bilateral treaties with EU that are extremely valuable for Swiss economy. Meanwhile, Swiss are about to have referendum on curbing immigration from the EU (they have real problems mainly with Germans and Austrians taking local's high paying jobs). This would have the same effect now that the EU needs to show muscle before Brexit negotiations - Brexit really sealed the deal on any prospects of special treatment that Swiss may have expected (one of the main EU freedoms is freedom to move and seek job in another country, which Switzerland has to abide to due to a number of bilateral treaties that on the other hand allow free access to the EU market to Swiss companies).

    Slovakia: Slovakia voted for the Directive. Pardon my French but F them. They are moving from one populist government to another and they can't even do the populism right as evidenced by the Directive vote.

    Czech Republic: We will file a suit against the Directive by the European Court of Justice; it now seems that Poland (which voted for the Directive, but had falling out of love with EU recently) might support the suit too. We will fight it both due to substance as well as procedural reasons, it seems that Poland will focus on procedural reasons only (i.e. the way it was passed). The rest will be decided by the autumn election.

    Ban on B7 in CR: The current strategy of the Social Democratic party that leads the Government coalition but seems to be on the way to lose the election to ANO party (which does not support the Constitutional Amendment) is to: 1) pass the amendment and invoke national security exemption derived from the primary EU law, 2) file the suit at the ECJ and not implement the Directive before the suit is decided (i.e. about 3 years) 3) establish "Ministry of Interior Militia" that will comprise anyone willing to join and thus use another of the Directive's exemptions (which was included to appease Finland and Estonia) 4) generally cut all corners that are available in the text of the Directive to preserve the current state of things as regards access to firearms.

    Public opinion: Reenactor's societies have become extremely active in recent weeks as the Directive moves their black powder or decommissioned guns from free-to-own into must-register category. Under current law, all C category firearms in the Czech Republic require firearms license, which most reenactors don't have and are unwilling to obtain. This would probably change when new law is passed to implement the Directive (i.e. they would only need registration, not the license same as for "real" firearms), however the Directive also sets rules for safe keeping which they would need to follow. This would A) raise cost for most B) be impossible for many who own canons or even heavy machinery with operable canons. Yes, there are people who privately own for example T-72 with operational canon, and which would according to some interpretation of the Directive now need to be put inside a proper safe. Anyways, the reenactors are very vocal and they are being heard in the media. The simple message that is getting through is that "EU is banning 14 century Hussite píšťala in order to fight terrorism" (with the unsaid "while forcing us to import hordes of Muslim immigrants" as the Brussels now moves forward with the immigrant quota enforcement).

    So yes, this is currently the main topic of the EU Gun Ban in the Czech media and it is helping our cause with public opinion immensely:



    Amendment: Went through 1st reading in the Chamber of Deputies, went through the Security Committee and will go through Constitutional Committee by the end of the month. It has taken a back seat due to our constitutional crisis that has stemmed from the disagreement between the Prime Minister (Social Democrat) and President over sacking of the Finance Minister (ANO).
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017 at 5:25 PM
  7. RoscoeBryant

    RoscoeBryant Member

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    Some thoughts I would like to add to the implementation of the directive:

    IF a country/government wants, they can effectively bypass most major points of the directive except for the magazine restrictions. They can grant licenses for cat. A firearms for "educational, cultural, including film and theatre, research or historical purposes" and for "national defense". The directive lists some possible reasons, but does not limit to them, so it's up to the country to decide that. Additionally, they can grant licences to collectors for "historical, cultural, scientific, technical, educational or heritage purposes".
    Also, semi-automatic firearms are only to be classified in cat. A if they are select fire, converted frim select fire or easily convertable to select fire - again it is up to the country to decide what "easily convertable" means.
    Medical checks were made optional, and if you have a licensing system (which all EU-countries have) in place, the "monitoring system" requirement is already met.
    However, the major thing you can not get around are magazine restrictions, which is not that big of a problem for handguns as they are limited to 20 rounds, but a very big deal for long-guns which are limited to 10 rounds.

    So concluding, it comes down to the member states themselves for the most part. Sadly, as you already have pointed out, it is common practice for national politicians to take the "hey, I dont like it either, but the EU forces us..."-road with unpopular laws.
    In Austria, our current government has told us, nothing will change except for the magazine restrictions (we already have outlawed "easily convertables", which in reality means, you have to switch out 2 parts and you are good to go as a manufacturer...), but the elections have been moved up a year to this fall - so we will see, what the next government looks like.
     
  8. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    I disagree, the Directive states:

    The Directive does not state anything about "ease of converting" as you write, it simply bans firearms which have been converted. All semi-auto vz.58 and most AK firearms in the Czech Republic are made by converting mil surplus frm select-fire. Meanwhile AR 15 are typically newly made as semi-auto. I don't know much about Austrian gun market and prevalence of converted select fire firearms, but here this is no joke.

    This was actually one of points of contest by the Czech Government - vz.58 properly converted under the Czech rules should be typically more complicated to reconvert to full auto than conducting illegal conversion of a rifle that was made as semi-auto from the beginning.

    Well...

    If everything goes as planned, this will be (alongside the sole jurisdiction provided in primary EU law) used in the Czech Republic in order to grant permit to anyone who will sign up as a member of the militia. Given that we have unparalleled legislation and statistics as regards concealed carry, and given that the current national security strategy includes CCers as an important component of soft targets protection, the bar will be met.

    Apart from issue of illegitimate encroachment on citizens' liberty, the Czech Government will fight the directive also due to practical reasons. There are probably hundreds of thousands of 30rds magazines in population and enforcement of a rule that rifle is A-OK when 10 round mag is inserted and VERBOTEN when 30 round mag is inserted would be a nightmare. Not to mention that it would take about 3 newspaper articles about gun confiscation due to the mag size and the next morning police stations will be filled up with people reporting their guns lost during boat fishing incidents.

    Well from what I know Czech Republic is unparalleled in Europe as regards the proportion of semi-auto to other firearms among gun owners, which is currently about 50:50 with semi-auto ownership rising fast and bolt action and other slowly declining. Maybe that is why you Austrians have a feeling not much will change.

    Here buying a converted vz.58 and/or vz.61 and/or ZB.30-37 and/or UK.59 is considered as the right introduction to the world of guns once the new owner has bought his obligatory first CZ 75/Glock/1911/revolver.
     
  9. RoscoeBryant

    RoscoeBryant Member

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    Sorry, I have not been precise enough - the part about convertability is included in the "explanation" section, not in the actual amendment. You are correct, the amendment itself only outlaws converted firearms.
    As I have stated - it is up to the government, if they want to find a workaround, they can. I certainly hope, the "militia-approach" will work out for you.

    In Austria, semi-autos are very commen nowadays (althouhg they have not been common for a long time) - however the reason there won't be that much of a change is not the low proportion of semi-autos but the existing laws. Converted select-fire-rifles are already outlawed and the market is geared towards newly manufactured semi-autos. If converted select-fires are very common in the CR, you are certainly much more affected by the directive, which makes the "workaround" and the dedication of the government to it even more important!

    As for the magazine restrictions - I am really curious how that will turn out. As I have explained at some point, when we had the "pump-action-ban" in Austria, compliance rate was about 5 to 7 percent. It am sure, the compliance rate with magazine bans will be even lower, as there is no record of magazine sales.

    As far as I understand it, there is also the possibility of granting licenses to own converted semi-autos and magazines over the 10 / 20 limit to target shooters, as long as they are members of a shooting club and take part in competitions. Of course we know, the whole thing is BS and I certainly hope the lawsuit of the CR will work out - but even if it does not, there still is room to work with for the national government
     
  10. Snejdarek

    Snejdarek Member

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    The recital is not legally binding. It may be used for interpretation of the legal text in case that the binding part leaves any room for interpretation. That is not the case here. ECJ has repeatedly held that recitals may not be used to override the law.

    Well let's say that this part of the law was probably drafted by some of our good friends from German government that have had experience with policing compliance of the population while they used to work for Stasi.

    This part is actually drafted in a way very similar to our Communist dictatorship rules of getting hold of firearm. Just that the apparatchick and local bureau are superseded by a recognized sporting roganization. First of all F them, second of all, this de-facto obligatory membership of organization in order to be eligible for certain privilege is unconstitutional in my country - exactly because we had to live with that S for 40 years.

    The militia part is mostly just to be sure.

    Primary approach is the reliance on national security being in sole jurisdiction of the country and our 2,75% CC rate of adult population making firearm ownership very much core of the national security agenda at the time of lone wolf attacks against soft targets.

    The suit is just icing on the cake that will allow politicians to postpone any decision on implementation.

    Meanwhile, quite an important development is happening on another front. Macron is pushing Brussels to start punishing Central European states for failing to comply with immigration quota. He is mistaking our refusal for mere reluctance. I can only hope that EU will start pushing hard before the Czech Autumn election. There is no way they can whip us to accept the migrants, and if they use the whip on migrants they won't have effective cards to play on the firearms later.
     
  11. RoscoeBryant

    RoscoeBryant Member

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    A lot of the directive seems to be drafted closely to german gun laws in general, as they have things like required shooting club membership for 12 months etc. already in place. Even for newly acquired magazines, it is a load of unnecessary and in practice unmanagable administrative work, let alone the magazines currently in possession of the people. How the heck are you going to manage licensing for un-serialized items with continous monitoring? There is simply no way to find out who has them apart from searching houses, and even that won't work..

    The wording of the directive additionally will lead to a bunch of lawsuits - just think of 9mm carbines accepting Glock mags. Do these mags qualify as "loading device for long firearms"? You can bet there will be judges somewhere who rule that way.
     

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