Ex cop/currently works in morgue

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Robert B

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Something for all you 9mm fans. So much for more capacity. This guy works in the morgue in Atlanta, and he says that bullets act much differently in the body as opposed to in gel. It's a long read, but worth it. The following post is from Curtis on concealed carry forum.

Posted - 12/31/2009 : 03:06:46
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All:

If you haven't read this aritcle, please do. VERY INTERESTING!! :)

All the best.

Curtis

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm
 
I have never seen proof this guy is/was for real. He disappeared shortly after posting on that forum with no verification he was who he said he was. IMHO it was a hoax or as real as Gecko45. Many of his statements of employment and experince didn't begin to add up.
 
I have never seen proof this guy is/was for real. He disappeared shortly after posting on that forum with no verification he was who he said he was. IMHO it was a hoax or as real as Gecko45. Many of his statements of employment and experince didn't begin to add up.
You'll have better luck on here with a "Stopping Power" thread or "9mm vs. .40" than you will with a thoughtful article on the testimony of a morgue worker. The "prove its" the "this has been discussed befores" and the "you opened an old thread?" idiots will always drag you down.

The guy provides some good insight, and based on the questions he was asked (after warning them beforehand!) it is no wonder he just disappeared. Why stand in a room full of trash when you can walk outside?

No loss though. There is an infinite source of credible information gathered by highly experienced 16 year olds on here that can easily fill in all the blanks. Just be here when it happens, don't reopen the thread, and never ever rediscuss something that has been discussed previously by the teenage oracles. Oh yeah, and that the information comes from them is all the "proof" you need --you only need proof and credentials if you are somebody else.
 
The alleged morgue-worker-cop story was thoroughly debunked a couple of years ago. You can search various forums for the back story.

Unfortunately, it has achieved self-licking ice cream cone status and endlessly circulates the Internet.

The author claimed to have seen more gunshot victims in one year at his county morgue than the total of shooting deaths for the same time frame spread across all metro Atlanta counties.

In other words, he fabricated the entire story...it's B.S.
 
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I've read that whole series of posts at least three times now, and while it's a really good read and well written, I'm still comfortable carrying .380 auto, 9x19, and .38 special. Doesn't mean I don't carry .45 acp or .357 mag as well, but I take it with a grain of salt.
 
In other words, he fabricated the entire story...it's B.S.
Several people know him personally that run various firearm related businesses; credible sources that are well known (LAV for one). It's not BS, it's factual.
 
How many militaries and police units outside of North America are using 10mm, .40, .45 or Magnum rounds ?

What is the most commonly used round in the world ?
 
Military and police should not be looked towards for advice on ballistics. Their choices are dictated by lowers bidders paid by the taxpayers.
 
read the article long ago, don't care. Direct quote from the article
Yes, the .380 and 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45.

Who only fires one round? I have been taught and train to fire until the threat stops being a threat.
 
And NATO interchangeability. If we used ammo that worked the best we would all be carrying M-2 and various .30 cals, not 5.56.
The Police and Military have differing objectives. Use different tools for different jobs.


Let the caliber war begin!
 
Yes, the .380 and 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45.

And I have transported a guy with a .44 Magnum hit in the upper left chest. No way he could survive, but he did.
Made runs on suicides with a .22lr that succeeded.
They put down 600 pound cows with .22lr in the stockyards.
Nothing is a guaranteed one shot stop, and little works sometimes too. Lots of variables that can change the outcome.
 
If we used ammo that worked the best we would all be carrying M-2 and various .30 cals, not 5.56.
We killed 30-40,000 enemies so far in the Sandbox, I'm guessing 97% of those with the 5.56. The M14 is not that common in the field. MK262 will get and has gotten plenty of one shot kills out to 700m. Well known in the military the old M855 sucks. The new version is better but not optimal. MK262 is proving itself. I've been in contact with several DMR soldiers over the recent years. They stuffed the M14 in the trunk and kept the MK12 on hand, rarely bringing out the 7.62 due to bulk. A MK12 with MK262 ammunition will be capable of 700-800m kills. The M14 had its day, but there's a reason they've been in storage for this many wars.
 
Several people know him personally that run various firearm related businesses; credible sources that are well known (LAV for one). It's not BS, it's factual.

Yeah, he's a real person all right. He's a forensic anthropologist with the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. Not a Medical Examiner. Not a Medical Doctor. Not a Pathologist. Not a "Mortician".

His claimed/implied numbers of autopsies are exaggerated (based upon UCR data and annual death reports for Georgia) and gun fatalities make up only a fraction of them, although he implied greater numbers. And as he admitted in his "report", the real ME often can't tell what handgun caliber was used to create a wound, unless the bullet was physically recovered.

He originally posted over at Smith & Wesson Forums, but was never willing to answer questions, respond to debate, or answer queries on that forum (nor on several others). He got called out on some facts and "disappeared".

Deadmeat2 is:

http://www.state.ga.us/gbi/pathology/bios.html

"Dr. Frederick Snow graduated from Georgia State University in Atlanta, GA with a B.A in 1970. He served as a patrolman for the Dekalb County Police Department from 1973 to 1980. Dr. Snow enrolled as a graduate student at the University of Tennessee in Knoxville, Tennessee and received a master's degree in anthropology in 1989. He joined the Georgia Bureau of Investigation in 2002 and earned a Ph.D. in anthropology from the University of Tennessee in 2004.

Dr. Snow has extensive field experience in the identification of remains from mass grave/disaster sites. Internationally, he served as a forensic anthropologist for the UN War Crimes Tribunal for Kosovo in 1999, helping to determine manner of death and gain evidence for the indictment of war criminals. He also excavated mass graves for the International Commission on Missing Persons in Sarajevo and Herzegovina, Bosnia to recover evidence for use at the UN War Crimes Tribunal at The Hague in 2001. Finally, Dr. Snow served in an administrative role for the tsunami victims identification project in 2005 in Phuket, Thailand. Domestically, he was part of the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team (DMORT), in Noble, Georgia in 2002, and helped recover and identify remains from 326 individuals at the Tri-State Crematory.

At the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, Dr. Snow has collected, analyzed, and archived approximately 200 sets of unidentified human skeletal remains dating to 1969. "
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So a GBI forensic anthropologist is a terminal ballistics expert? Another poster summed it up nicely on a 2006 thread about this topic...

July 13, 2006, 04:04 PM #159 by buzz_knox
Member

"It's not about preferences or beliefs. It's whether or not someone who is stating a specific conclusion based on specific evidence actually has observed said evidence and has the qualifications to draw the conclusions asserted. Deadmeat2 came off as an ME, who would have somewhat of a basis of knowledge for determining effects of different rounds and determining how said effects differ based on penetration, wound characteristics, etc. Except, he's not an ME. He's a forensic pathologist. He will typically be seeing bodies that need identification or evidence gathered, not the cause of death determined. Some of the critical wound characteristics will no longer be there because the bodies are often partially/totally decomposed. The bodies on the autopsy table Deadmeat2 speaks of will often consist principally of bones. Any data on bullet type will only be determined if the bullet is recovered.

After all that has been discussed on this thread, if you buy his argument, that's great. But understand you are doing so based on not much more than the same anecdotal evidence you get at a gun shop, combined on your own particular prejudices for or against a particular caliber."

This falls into the realm of a deer processor cutting up the meat and making value judgments about caliber effectiveness. Without ever actually seeing the deer get shot.

As I said... B.S.
 
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UCR data is worth the paper I wipe my butt with as it's not mandatory and it's not close to 100% reporting.
 
Military and police should not be looked towards for advice on ballistics. Their choices are dictated by lowers bidders paid by the taxpayers.
I respectfully disagree. Different times and different cultures, different procurement methods, different goals. In many cases the ammo would be produced at state owned facilities by state employed workers, making the relative cost of different pistol calibers rather irrelevant. Most historical accounts of new handgun / caliber development started with gov't issuing specifications which specifically listed the caliber. Including the handguns adopted by US Military.

I think in most countries, the police is following military choice of calibers. There's just a very different culture in the Americas (not just the US, I think) vs the rest of the world. Here, the large calibers are preferred, for whatever reason. In Europe, and pretty much elsewhere, the round of choice historically was either Mauser 7.62 / 7.65 mm (great ballistics, great penetration, relatively low stopping power) or Luger (great ballistics, OK penetration, OK stopping power). Luger slowly pushed the other rounds out of favor. The eastern block first used TT33 with round based on Mauser (a very popular round in Russia after the Civil War), and later 9x18mm Makarov (a relatively anemic Luger wannabe from what I read). Again from what I read, there was much complaining about going to Mak round, since most people with first hand combat or police experience preferred the penetrating qualities of older round. However the large calibers never made it big anywhere else but in NA. Although I read that 10mm is now getting accepted more widely around the globe as a serious military round. Still, 9mm Luger seems to be _the_ round of choice. Either everyone else is dumb, or there's quite a number of caliber snobs on gun forums.

Now, I am not really an expert on all the armies and PDs in the world. It may be that there is actually more of them using large cals outside of Americas - please educate me if you have better data.
 
Most historical accounts of new handgun / caliber development started with gov't issuing specifications which specifically listed the caliber. Including the handguns adopted by US Military.
These were done by the civilian market, not solely for military.
I think in most countries, the police is following military choice of calibers. There's just a very different culture in the Americas (not just the US, I think) vs the rest of the world. Here, the large calibers are preferred, for whatever reason.
Reason being performance. All things equal, a larger bullet does more permanent damage. ever hear "a 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink"? Well there's some truth to that.


Although I read that 10mm is now getting accepted more widely around the globe as a serious military round.
First time I ever heard that. Be honest with you, if a situation in warfare comes down to a pistol and its cartridge, the S has really, really hit the fan.

Still, 9mm Luger seems to be _the_ round of choice. Either everyone else is dumb, or there's quite a number of caliber snobs on gun forums.
For many years, when Europe coughed, everyone got a cold. Seems to reign true these days.

I really didn't see the need for the change. I bet if we could account for the number of enemies KIA by the .45 ACP 1911 from WWI to Vietnam it wouldn't impress the likes of McNamara.

Now, I am not really an expert on all the armies and PDs in the world. It may be that there is actually more of them using large cals outside of Americas - please educate me if you have better data.
9mm is nominal .355" .45 ACP is nominal .451". We're talking a mere .096". The real reason for the change was political. One nation used the .45 ACP while dozens used the 9mm. Guess who won?
 
Why are we looking at comments from a dubious researcher when the FBI has mounds of evidence and statistics from LE and civilian shootings? :banghead:

LD
 
This guys "report" and conclusions is proof of nothing except that he lacks in the area of critical thinking. All this guy was looking at was the group of people who were shot and died of their wounds. He didn't know how long it took them to die, he didn't know how many shots were fired. Using this guys thinking, if the only guns that anyone carried were a single shot 22 derringer and a Glock with a 30 round magazine, he would conclude that the 22 was the hammer of God and the Glock was ineffective. After all, the dead people in the morgue killed with a 22 were all only shot once. the ones shot with the Glock were shot many times. He could have just as easily concluded from his observations that you are likely to get more hits with a 9mm than with a 45 when you empty the magazine at someone in a high stress situation. I predict that if a lot of people carried revolvers chambered in 32 S&W that he would have concluded that it too was "wonderfully effective". After all the shooter would only have 6 rounds at most, so how many times would each dead person likely be shot?
It doesn't take much intelligence to know that given 2 wounds in the exact same spot, with the exact same amount of penetration, with very similar velocities, the larger diameter wound will be more effective. However, there is way more at play in self defense than just wound diameter.
 
These were done by the civilian market, not solely for military.

Reason being performance. All things equal, a larger bullet does more permanent damage. ever hear "a 9mm may expand, but a .45 will never shrink"? Well there's some truth to that.



First time I ever heard that. Be honest with you, if a situation in warfare comes down to a pistol and its cartridge, the S has really, really hit the fan.


For many years, when Europe coughed, everyone got a cold. Seems to reign true these days.

I really didn't see the need for the change. I bet if we could account for the number of enemies KIA by the .45 ACP 1911 from WWI to Vietnam it wouldn't impress the likes of McNamara.


9mm is nominal .355" .45 ACP is nominal .451". We're talking a mere .096". The real reason for the change was political. One nation used the .45 ACP while dozens used the 9mm. Guess who won?
You seem to assume that dozens of the countries using 9mm para round just parroted Germany without going to any round effectiveness trials. AFAIK any standard round choice was a result of extensive trials in Germany, France, England and Russia, and probably other countries as well (that I never read about).

The large caliber isn't anyting new. All european powers went from large caliber revolvers to much smaller calibers around WWI. There must have been a number of reasons.
 
Gelatin is used as a test medium because it approximates living tissue, there being a lack of willing live test subjects. Naturally a bullet will perform differently.

Indeed. Gelatin is calibrated to approximate muscle tissue. A given bullet will perform differently in living muscle than in dead muscle. Different in a defensive end's muscle than in that of a small female who runs a cash register. Throw in skin, fat, bone, and various organ tissues...and it'll perform differently in a given body depending on where it hits. Add layers of different types of clothing, and it gets real interesting.

I consider gelatin to be mostly useful as a consistent, repeatable medium for comparing the performance of different bullets rather than providing any idea of what a bullet will do when it hits living tissue.
 
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