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Example of how NOT to protect your neighborhood

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by mljdeckard, Jul 23, 2009.

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  1. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    IF all reported carries truth.....

    if 2 civilians display guns... in front of you,
    after your heard they were stalking/harassing....

    ... would give me the impression that i am in deep sh....
    hard to say, but not unlikely i´d shoot instantly myself.

    Hard to say. But from the reading
    those guys were playing sheriff.
    And they overacted their mission and competency.

    sad. Let´s hope the father get´s out of it
    and everyone learns by this example.
     
  2. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    Better:

    New1st Rule for gunfights:
    BRING A BRAIN.

    (..and make sure you take it home intact)
     
  3. KBT1911

    KBT1911 Member

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    HOA/Neighborhood Watch=FAIL
    Dad=FAIL
     
  4. telkontar

    telkontar Member

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    A lot of exit ramps were missd on the path to tragedy. The op's title said it all -- how not to do it.
    If you start a patrol, it needs to be publicized to all residents. The goal was to stop the petty crimes. The perps nowing they were being hunted would likely have stopped the problem.
    When patrolling, patrollers should identify themselves. If they had told the girls, "There's been some crime and we're trying to make sure everyone is safe. Let us know if you see anything suspicious." then drove away, there would likely have been no problems. Interrogation was not their job.
    The shooter should have kept the kids in the house and dialed 911.
    Then the facts get even more iffy -- who drew their firearm, when, and why?The President of the HOA will be the star witness in court (and was probably the DA's source for its version of the story).
    I like to speculate, but the legal and factual situations are too iffy to try this case online.
    Know what you're doing, why you're doing it, and how to do it. This event chain should have been broken long before any party even thought about their sidearm.
    Bluffdale is next to the prison, incidentally.
     
  5. dieselkanic

    dieselkanic Member

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    Plastics factory?

    What is so horrible about a plastics factory in the basement? A good many self-employeed Americans started in the basement or garage or corner room...
     
  6. 2RCO

    2RCO Member

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    Er um meh uhh.... I guess I shouldn't tell my HOA about the Polymer Grip Making operation that may or may not be housed in my basement.... Our HOA operates on two major principles 1. Don't ask don't tell when it comes to unseen violations. 2. It is alot easier to get forgiveness than permission.(If you want to put a fence in they might not approve it --if you do it anyway then they'll bitch about it but do nothing from what I've seen with neighbors who have chain link fences that are against the rules.

    HOAs are like anything else and only as good as the people in them. Luckily I live in a place where the HOA only pops in on something that is an actual problem and doesn't knitpick.
     
  7. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    I Can guess, but where do HOAs get their money from?
     
  8. Joe Demko

    Joe Demko Member

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    Just two minutes from sanity.
    My take? This is what happens when private citizens decide they are "sheepdogs."
     
  9. UniversalFrost

    UniversalFrost Member

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    after reading hte first page I would say that the shooter should have called the cops instead of looking for the perps.

    Cops would have definately responded, albeit their response time might not have been the greatest.

    I am the father or 2 girls and have had combat experience and know how to handle a situation where foes are armed and while I would definately be mad at something like this happening in my neighborhood I would not drag my daughter out to find the guys. Let the cops do the job they are paid for.

    hope the guy gets out of jail and gets the charges downgraded or dropped and while I think that they guys that were following the girls need to be punished I think that they are suffering enough (especially the guy that got shot) and hopefully this will serve as a warning and a lesson to all in the city. a little bit of communication and coordination would have prevented all this. instead you have some gung ho guys trying to play cop and another concerned father who let the gun go to his head and attitude and it all ended badly.
     
  10. dec41971

    dec41971 Member

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    EL_Hombre wrote: "....Most neighborhoods have a "self-appointed" protector. Usually a busy body nuisance. This neighborhood had two...."
    I have lived in condo communities for almost 20yrs, believe me, these idiots exist in every condo community I moved to.:banghead: Yeah, I hate the type, they are nothing but trouble. How about minding your own business and calling the cops to investigate any suspicious situation? Those who encourage said idiots feeling they are a value-add or free service fail to realize MOST of these people have attitude problems and they add nothing but potential trouble.

    Now Campos is a hot headed guy too, and his rage was understandably fueled by the "creep stalking his daughter". He should have let his cool head prevail. Either way I see this a bone-headed behavior on both sides resulting in a very bad tragedy. Either of these two guys would have wound up getting hurt, and I think attempted murder is extreme, considering the shootee had his gun out too, and clearly visible. Any update on this story? Sad as it is, I see Campo is maybe 60% guilty and the Cop wannabe is 40% guilty, so he too bares a lot of responsibility for his own injury. I know a few tough-guy types like him, and they forget in a gunfight tough counts for nothing, only the first hit counts.

    In my last condo we had one self appointed community enforcer who was so annoying and obnoxious I very nearly called the cops on him myself. He was harassing one college age neighborhood girl for parking by the fire hydrant unloading stuff from her car. Totally stupid and unwarranted shouting match ensued, and I was trying to get to my unit, didn't want to get involved, but couldn't help feeling sympathy for and siding with the girl on this one. Yes it was a fire-hydrant, and EL_Macho was not the fire-chief either, and yet it was not unreasonable, its not like she parked there and left, she was moving stuff into the house from the only available space close-by. Seriously! I would never have imagined it escalating to anything physical given the size and age disparity between the two, but after reading this here, that situation comes to mind and I can see how these seemingly innocuous arguments can get out of hand fast.:eek:
     
  11. HOUNDDAWG

    HOUNDDAWG Member

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    One cannot as a matter of law intentionally put one's self in harm's way or escalate danger then justifiably claim self defense.

    Too many inexperienced people swagger when armed and then they end up making headlines that law abiding gun owners could do without.

    Needless to say our very vocal critics delight in this and (contrary to HANDGUN CONTROL's motto, TO SAVE ONE LIFE) the more innocents who are shot, killed, crippled and maimed the better.
     
  12. sonier

    sonier Member

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    yea, call police not too much hope on them, followed dangerous trucker one time down in georgia, couldnt pass him safely, he was swerving BAD. called 911 3 times NOTHING they said they would send a car, followed for 70 miles, finaly came across a billboard that said this dial *GSP well that was state patrol, tookt hem 5 minutes with a brand new charger going about 150 down that interstate to pass us. point is 911 only seems to show up when a child dials the number, or they dont show up at all. my experience.

    i would have followed them discretely the guys, if this was my daughter. called 911 and continue harrasing them till somin is done. i wouldnt have gotten out of the car though.
     
  13. CTGunner

    CTGunner Member

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    Update?

    Does anyone have an update on this?
     
  14. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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  15. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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  16. Gouranga

    Gouranga Member

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    I'd say they both screwed up. I can certainly understand and sympathize with the man wanting to patrol his neighborhood. if I were to do so here, I would definitely go armed. That being said. I am not a cop. I would notify our local community police officer what I was doing FIRST. If I see something suspicious in such a situation, I call the cops period. I do not engage like this guy did with these girls.

    If you are going to engage and pretend you are a cop, what is the FIRST thing an undercover cop does in such a situation? He/she identifies themselves. There is a reason for that.

    Second the father. As the father of 4 girls, I sympathize with his feelings. I would probably go looking for the vehicle too. Once i found it, I would get a plate, call the cops and let them deal with him. I no way would I get out of the car. I have a firearm on my hip almost every day. Getting out of the car to confront the guy, would greatly heighten the chance I would be shooting someone. IMO, it is extremely bad judgment to deliberately create a self defense situation. Granted this father probably lost it period. he was scared for his daughter, wanted this pervert off the streets and went to go take care of business.

    The irony is, judging by both their responses to crime in their neighborhood, I would bet if he had asked him ahead of time, the shooter would have probably joined the victim patrolling the neighborhood.
     
  17. JellyJar

    JellyJar Member

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    Serbeck and his fried were stupid for following the girls. The girl's father, Reginald Campos, was stupid for going after Serbeck and friend in the SVU. He should have either let it go or called the police.
     
  18. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    thats some interesting stuff coming out about the guy who go shot
     
  19. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    The 911 audio clip posted in comment #90 is well worth a listen. A very educational 11 minutes of your time. Additional video with photo of Campos here. Given the title of this thread, it might be worth a moment to ponder the reverse, i.e., "how DO you protect your neighborhood?"

    Contrary to a few remarks made earlier by others, there's really nothing wrong or stupid about forming a neighborhood watch. If thieves, vandals, rapists, etc., are targeting the area where you live, a patrol can be a pro-active response better than hoping the police get lucky someday.

    Effective patrols I've seen are usually composed of 3 to 4 locals who wear a reflective sash, like those worn by crossing guards. They carry flashlights. Patrolling on foot at random hours or as intensively as circumstances require can persuade criminals to go do their thing elsewhere. The patrol serves as a strong deterrent.

    There shouldn't be anything wrong with a patrol member being armed, as long as it's CCW and understood that the only purpose is to protect the NW from attack in the event they surprise a criminal red-handed. The only actions the NW should ever take is to be alert, watchful, and use their flashlights and cellphones as needed. The entire neighborhood should be apprised and everyone able should volunteer.

    This kind of thing helps draw neighbors together and increases neighborhood alertness, further hardening the target. This is no joke - if a violent serial rapist has ever been loose in your town, if a gang of thieves is working your area, robbing homes and breaking into cars, you know that it is every capable citizen's duty to protect the neighborhood from the predators.

    But in this case, we had two guys out cruising around in a car? That's doing it wrong. If the area's spread out, the patrol can use bicycles. On foot is best - the watch members learn the sounds and patterns of the community, they learn what's normal, who lives where, what vehicles are normally parked where, etc. The NW can disband after the threat passes.
     
  20. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    this story has a couple odd twists that have surfaced
     
  21. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    Like we said before, BOTH parties went looking for trouble, and both found it. the crux of this case will be whether or not the victim was still holding a gun at the time he was shot. The witnesses seem to lean toward the position that he had dropped his gun and kicked it away, and Campos shot anyway. I can't find definitive stories about it now, but if it goes to trial and the only people who say that the victim was holding a gun are Campos and the two girls, he may well be in big trouble.
     
  22. ForumSurfer

    ForumSurfer Member

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    This is my biggest issue with neighborhood watches. We, as law abiding citizens tend to be reactionary. We see a threat, we react, threat disappears and we de-escalate our aggressive defense.

    These guys in this story did everything wrong. I think they watched CSI a little too often.

    The father should have called the police before hand. Once they arrived, he should have filed a report. If they never showed, he should have taken the license plate down, went to the police station, filed a complaint about no response and filed a report about the incident. The police will respond. If they don't, it's our fault as much as it is theirs if we simply ignore it without calling them on it.
     
  23. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    Yet this is the normal pattern for most people. If your community is not plagued by high rates of crime, there is no need for a NW. It's a fairly extreme measure and it requires a strong commitment on the part of the residents to establish and maintain the regime. It's usually an emergency response.

    Once the main problem has been disposed of, then residents (in normal cases) can return to "condition 2" levels of watchfulness. However, any community that has established a NW will perforce be a more hardened target in future than one that hasn't, for the reasons mentioned above.

    Not all communities are the same. High SES areas have different needs from low SES areas. My neighborhood, for example, doesn't have problems with street prostitution. Other neighborhoods do. The structure and nature of a NW will be tailored to the unique circumstances of the residents in question. There is no downside for any community at any time to form a NW. It isn't something you should have an "issue" with for any reason.

    From my reading of history, I've noted that NWs have been common to nearly all cultures around the globe going back to antiquity. It's almost in our DNA. What is weird to me are the people who are averse to such measures and would prefer to hole up their homes. I'm all for personal responsibility and having a solid home defense plan, but community protection is a group effort.
     
  24. philip964

    philip964 Member

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    I would suspect if the guy who was hit, fired and hit first, he would be charged with attempted murder or worse. Maybe rather than unconcealing his gun the victim should have raised his hands and said "we are with the neighborhood watch, don't shoot". When faced with a guy who is defending his daughter and his turf, he's probably not a bad guy and isn't planning on shooting anyone. That is until you draw your gun.
     
  25. sandboxdoc1

    sandboxdoc1 Member

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    The neighborhood watch patrol should have been driving around with magnetic markings and portable dash strobe lights. Why wasn't the armed neighborhood watch guy wearing body armor? Reading how he was struck with the bullet, body armor may have prevented him from sustaining such serious injuries.
     
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