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FACTORING CRITERIA FOR RIFLED BARREL WEAPONS WITH ACCESSORIES* commonly referred to as “STABILIZING

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by dogtown tom, Jun 7, 2021.

  1. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Remember, they're not coming for your guns...
     
  2. milsurpguy

    milsurpguy member

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    From what I have seen, effectively every some what popular AR pistol sold over the last 6 years would be an SBR under this character build sheet thing.
     
  3. giggitygiggity

    giggitygiggity Member

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    Also, please do not let the brace factoring criteria distract from the proposed rule regarding the definition of a firearm and the marking/serialization of firearms. These are two separate proposals, both of which. need to be commented on, politicians written to, and vehemently opposed. Additionally, realize that this is the second time in the last 7 months that the ATF posted a proposed rule change regarding braces; the December proposed rule change was a separate proposal so be sure to submit comments for this latest proposed brace infringement as well. Links to each are as follows

    Frame/Receive and Markings:
    https://www.regulations.gov/document/ATF-2021-0001-0001

    Stabilizing Brace Factoring Criteria:
    https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/06/10/2021-12176/factoring-criteria-for-firearms-with-attached-stabilizing-braces#open-comment

    Share with as many pro gun people as you can find. My concern is that with both of these proposals being simultaneous, people will say, “I submitted a comment” and not realize that they did not comment on both of these wildly anti-gun proposals. A lot of me thinks that the ATF did this purposely so that each proposal distracts from the other in the hopes that people provide less comments or only focus in on the one proposal that is most relevant to them.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  4. berettaprofessor

    berettaprofessor Member

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    Ok, let's suppose that I'm not handicapped and having an SBR without the stamp is my only advantage. You're working under the false narrative that the SBR regulations are necessary/important/integral to preventing crime and pestilence....which if you look up how they came into being, is government corruption from the beginning. Let's not let use them to support what law exists against us based on the assumption that the underlying law doesn't ALREADY impede rights.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  5. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

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    Are you talking about the SB-15 brace or something else they made? My layman subjective look at the brace sheet it scores 3 points in section II. Not knowing LOP and whatnot, Not sure what it would score on III.
     
  6. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    This is nothing more than the prelude to broader bans and confiscations. It's the Sudetenland before the rest of Czechoslovakia.
     
  7. SquidBubble

    SquidBubble Member

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    I was within the bounds of the law when I bought a braced pistol, and now suddenly I could be a felon overnight? I submitted a comment and it's a bit wordy, but I think I made my point crystal clear. I also wrote my senators and representatives but they're all left-wing extremists, so I'm confident that my words fell on deaf ears.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  8. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    I would remind folks again that announcing you will not comply with a law is:

    1. Stupid on a public forum unless you deliberately want to be the test case and have the financial and legal resources to play this role.

    2. In general, THR does not want posts that promote illegal actions, only responsible activism against such.
     
  9. Rexster

    Rexster Member

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    It is important to pay attention. When the NFA was enacted, it was often possible to keep one’s weapon, that would be prohibited by the NFA, during an amnesty period. When the recent “bump-stock ban” went into effect, there was no amnesty, as bump stocks became contraband, outright. We do not yet know how this is going to be handled, if any legal changes are made, so, we really do need to pay attention.

    One remedy, for those with braced pistols, who live in jurisdictions where SBRs are allowed by local/state law, would be to jump through the hoops, and submit the documents, to own an NFA-legal SBR. One can already do this, without waiting for any changes to be made by the feds. Some folks that post on another forum are already doing this. (Personally, I am not likely to want my DDM4 V7P to be re-classified as an SBR, because a significant reason I bought it, was to be a legal pistol, when traveling in places that forbid loaded guns guns being transported inside moving vehicles. Traveling out-of-state with an NFA item is quite a bit of annoying trouble.)

    Another remedy may be to wait and see if there will be any legal changes to the status of braced pistols, with an amnesty period, for registering such weapons. We may be able to keep our weapons, in the configuration in which we bought them, by jumping through the relevant hoops, within a specified time period. If my DDM4 V7P can maintain its status as a pistol/handgun, I might prefer this route.

    Another remedy might be to remove features that cause one’s weapon to be deemed an NFA weapon. The brace that was packaged with my DDM4 V7P is not my cup of tea, anyway, for example, so, perhaps it can carry on, as a legal M4 pistol, with its feature-less pistol buffer tube. Of course, I would need to pay attention to what OTHER features might be used to calculate the points that would result in an NFA weapon. (Fore grips, magnified optics, arbitrary weight limits, etc...)

    I might rather, of course, simply convert my M4 pistol to a long gun. (I’d double-check the applicable local, state, and federal laws, of course.)

    I could construct several other remedies and possibilities, but my gimpy hand and wrist are aching, so, two-handed typing is not fun, today.

    I am not a lawyer, so, this is not legal advice.
     
  10. SquidBubble

    SquidBubble Member

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    I've been weighing my options. I've considered getting a 16" upper which would not only bypass this nonsense but also get me extra velocity which is rarely a bad thing, but it would also make my gun much heavier and more cumbersome inside my small house which is the sole reason I bought a shorter barrel in the first place. If I made it an SBR then sure I could get the stock I've always wanted, but then I'd need to beg permission from the crown to cross state lines as well as leave it unloaded and out of reach inside my truck, and that's on the assumption that I'm not in a jurisdiction that has banned SBRs outright. Ugh. Every single option sucks in its own way, so IF this rule is implemented then my only choice is to simply pick which option I think sucks the least.

    I will definitely wait to see how this plays out. If I end up purchasing that $200 permission slip then I will do whatever it takes to get that rule yanked.
     
  11. Balrog

    Balrog Member

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    If I owned a braced AR pistol, I would probably just put a 16” barreled upper on it to make it a rifle, and then not have to go register with the government.
     
  12. lsudave

    lsudave Member

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    So, being fairly new to the AR platform, and not currently possessing a pistol- I am not up to speed on everything entailed here.

    PSA just had blemished complete pistol lowers on their Daily Deal for cheap. I ordered one, intending to build (honestly just putting an upper and a lower together.
    5165492677.jpg
    Per the specs-
    It appears to be a blade, currently w/o a strap.

    As best as I can figure- that would score a 5 in section 2 as-is; but I could add a strap and bring it to a 3. Correct?

    If I can get Sec 2 under control, now looking at Sec 3:

    • **This is an area of concern, I don't know what it will be. I can only hope it would be under 12-1/2**
    As I understand, if it's compliant to this point, a set of fixed iron sites would then complete the gun without further point total. Correct?

    One further question, which may render this all pointless. The upper I intended to pair this with, is a 10.5" barrel. BCA side-charging, .556. I chose this length to try to avoid the huge boom of a 7.5".
    So now, I'm trying to determine if the barrel will push it beyond 26".

    Sorry if this is a bit of a hijack, but I'm trying to figure out if what I ordered is going to even be legal based on the new ATF intentions.
     
  13. SquidBubble

    SquidBubble Member

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    Don't rack your brain over it too much because remember, even if your gun scores 3 points or less, the ATF is reserving for itself the right to call your gun an SBR anyways if they "feel" that you're trying to circumvent the NFA. That literally defeats the whole purpose of even having a points system in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  14. lsudave

    lsudave Member

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    yeah, I get that.

    I'm just processing everything in my head right now, because my upper and lower, at this moment, are both still in the "processing" point. Nothing has shipped.

    As best as I can tell, that lower could convert to a rifle, just by adding a stock. The only real hassle would be- what to do with a 10.5" barrel? I guess I could get a longer barrel, but wouldn't know what to do with the shorter one.
     
  15. DoubleMag

    DoubleMag Member

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    etc.

    I STILL HAVE NOT FOUND an answer yea or nea, just simply remove the brace and your PISTOL is A-Ok?

    Or...is this a de-facto PISTOL BAN.

    If so, I would find it hard to believe, unless it was to BAN the AR15/AK variants' platforms. And IMHO those would be spelled out. However, my trust level, after a long time (decade?) of determination letters from these guys ''yes you are Ok its NOT a SBR'' ''No don't shoulder'' ''yes Ok to shoulder occasionally'' ''its a redign///no it isn't''...and I M skeptical.


    I read it on various websites could be either way
     
  16. lsudave

    lsudave Member

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    As I read it,
    1. the firearm is measured.
    2. If it meets this criteria, you then look to see about eligible "accessories".
    In other words, if it's an AR shorter than 26 inches, it is a "pistol", and you can then set out with the various stuff.
     
  17. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    FACTORING CRITERIA FOR RIFLED BARREL WEAPONS WITH ACCESSORIES* commonly referred to as “STABILIZING BRACES”

    Will have to take more time later to review later but apparently braces on the Shockwave or Tac-14 are not addresses here as they are not "Rifled Barrel" type fire arms .
     
  18. dbz77

    dbz77 Member

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    Well, if you live in an upper-middle-class suburb, they are clearly not coming for your guns.

    The answer is different for those living in the ghetto or the 'hood.

    I think this is privilege.

    And this privilege is based on a conspicuous, immutable characteristic.

    Can you guess what this characteristic is?
     
  19. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    We are wandering off topic here. The topic is the specifics of the proposed actions, if you please.
     
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  20. illinoisburt

    illinoisburt Member

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    At this point you won't find the answer to your first question answer because ARs truly are Legos so darned near every build is different. By pistol ban, I assume you mean only AR pistol ban since obviously this has no bearing on any standard handguns I can think of. It seems pretty straight forward the intent is to enforce a traditional definition of PISTOL = HANDGUN, as in a small firearm which is obviously intended to be used one-handed while held at arms length. If it's too heavy, too long, or set up with sights or accessories which don't naturally comport with traditional handgun shooting styles then you are going to be hard pressed to prove it isn't an SBR regardless whether you have pulled the brace off or not. Of course this is not the law yet. It could be amended or withdrawn depending on what responses are received during the comment period.
     
  21. P Flados

    P Flados Member

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    Removing the brace is one of the allowed options listed by the ATF.

    Getting one of the foam rubber buffer tube sleeves will make a non-braced AR pistol more friendly. Even without shoulder contact, a pistol AR can fired pretty accurately with the buffer resting against your cheek.

    You really do not need to do anything with the brace once removed. I have a shockwave blade on a 10.5" 300 BO pistol. If I remove the brace from my pistol, it is still useful as a buttstock on a rifle. It will not make a great buttstock, but it will be legal based on the ATF discussion of acceptable options for brace owners.

    I decided to see what it would take to make my gun compliant with the rule as currently proposed.

    With a 10.5" barrel, I found that replacing the muzzle device with a thread protector and adjusting the brace for a 10.75" length of pull was needed to get just under 26" overall length. I then replaced the currently installed scope with a non-magnified red-dot. Finally, I scrounged around and found a velcro strap that I could install and set up for effective use in stabilizing the gun for one handed fire.

    Since they are not saying it is wrong to shoulder a "braced pistol" I tried out the combination with the red dot and the 10.75" length of pull. I found it very non-optimal but workable.

    I also have a 7.5" 300 BO barrel not currently installed. I could put it back in service to gain a little more length of pull, but I would loose velocity and get more muzzle blast.

    If the rule goes through, I am not sure I will keep the brace on my pistol. As I read it, with the brace replaced by a foam sleeve, I can put a rifle scope back on the gun. This may actually be more useful for my desires.
     
  22. GEM

    GEM Moderator Emeritus

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    Some states (NY) ban magazine fed pistols if the magazine is not in the grip, FYI.
     
  23. American_Fusilier

    American_Fusilier Member

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    It's not about revenue, it's about control. It's always about control
     
  24. George P

    George P member

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    And who controls the money has the power
     
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  25. WestKentucky

    WestKentucky Member

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    I see this from a totally different angle than most folks. I had an AR pistol, it was fun but really not my thing. A lot of the folks I know with braces are parents and those braces are on guns built specifically to allow for a much more manageable firearm for kids to use. That’s the main purpose of the one I have for my contender. Are they making an end run to make firearms more adult-centric knowing that people introduced to guns as a teenager or adult will probably care less about them as an adult and therefore allow the long term game to play out where bans and confiscations are more readily accepted.
     
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