False Imprisonment, CCW, and "Code Adam"

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hoppinglark

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The issue of False Imprisonment had been on my mind lately.
I saw a movie a few days ago where a character was tricked to appear on a talk show, he attempted to leave and the security guard blocked him, The "guest" asked him "You wanna get out of my way?!" and the Guard just shook his head.
Isn't that False Imprisonment?
How and when is it Okay to tell your captor that you are armed and if they don't let you go, you will use force?

Which brings me to the issue of "Code Adam" I work at Toys R Us and yesterday we had a Code Adam called, I ran to the nearest wall and blocked the fire exits and then I started to wonder..."What if someone wants to leave, am I correct to stop them?"

I've been looking online at Florida Law but it's all greek to me.
What does this area of the law mean to those of us who exercise CCW?
 
CCW is a red herring. Code Adam or not, you have no legal right to prevent anyone from leaving your store unless you have PERSONALLY seen that person committing a crime. Doesn't matter if you have a firearm or not.
 
Its best not to work at a place like that if you intend on violating the policy of the business. No matter their policy may be illegal, you can still lose your job.

There is a time though when law enforcement can arrive at a store and just stand by and have people exit slowly and just watch their faces and what not, looking for the lost kid.

I'll say this: Law enforcement around here frowns down on these "code adam" type situations at times. As useful as they can be, they can also create many problems.

I have been in a store before when a storm was nearby and the power went out. They made everyone go to the center of the front of the store near the registers, and they locked all the doors. They said over the PA they did not want anyone to leave due to the storm. Well anyway, the Local PD arrived and said "Whoever wants can leave just put up your groceries, and we'll escort you out and look out for flying debris"

The management was pissed, and one of my LEO friends who was on duty at the time told me they just didn't want people leaving when their metal detectors were not working, and they got mad when the LEOs told them they couldn't just hold people there... hah
 
Which brings me to the issue of "Code Adam" I work at Toys R Us and yesterday we had a Code Adam called, I ran to the nearest wall and blocked the fire exits and then I started to wonder..."What if someone wants to leave, am I correct to stop them?"
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Code Adam or not, you have no legal right to prevent anyone from leaving your store...
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I'd have no problem stopping anyone from leaving the store. As a parent myself, I'd be willing to deal with any possible consequences of delaying someone's exit from the store by a few minutes. I'm sure both the child and the parent would consider it worth it if it means possibly preventing the kidnapping of the child (unless you're talking about using your gun to stop people from leaving, that's a touchier subject).

Just for future reference, if I'm ever in your store and my child is missing and they call a Code Adam, I'd sure appreciate it if you prevent anyone from leaving for a few minutes until my kid is found. On the other hand, if my child disappears from the store and I find that the employees let people out during a Code Adam, I'll see to it that the legal S will really HTF.
 
Most states allow people to use commensurate force to push your way past someone who is blocking your path towards a place it is lawful for you to be.

AFAIK, it's normally lawful to be in a parking lot.


Note that commensurate force doesn't mean to you threaten someone with lethal force. Again, most states distinguish force from lethal force.
 
Just for future reference, if I'm ever in your store and my child is missing and they call a Code Adam, I'd sure appreciate it if you prevent anyone from leaving for a few minutes until my kid is found.
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Freaked that your child has gone missing? Shoulda kept better track of it. Being a parent does not grant you special rights over my right to travel unimpeded in a public/semi-public space you do not own if I am clearly NOT in possesion of your misplaced child.
 
I'd have no problem stopping anyone from leaving the store. As a parent myself, I'd be willing to deal with any possible consequences of delaying someone's exit from the store by a few minutes.
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If you or the store tried to stop me by force the consequences you mention could be very bad indeed unless you see his feet sticking out of a sack I am carrying.

Just because you didn't keep up with your kid does not mean a crime of kidnapping has occurred and it most certainly does not give you the right, as an admitted crappy parent, to violate ANY of MY rights just because YOU screwed up by not minding your child.
 
Just for future reference, if I'm ever in your store and my child is missing and they call a Code Adam, I'd sure appreciate it if you prevent anyone from leaving for a few minutes until my kid is found. On the other hand, if my child disappears from the store and I find that the employees let people out during a Code Adam, I'll see to it that the legal S will really HTF.
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Just for your future reference, "they" have no legal method of preventing anyone from leaving until your kid is found. Nor do you.

FWIW, the "Code Adam" instruction is to monitor the exits, and not to detain anyone from leaving. Wallyworld's policy specifically states: "...the doors are not locked, only closely monitored, so customers are free to come and go."

Even the Gov't's official "Code Adam" instruction mentions nothing about detaining people at the exits. Copy here: http://www.gsa.gov/gsa/cm_attachments/GSA_BASIC/Code_Adam_Poster_R2P8Z_0Z5RDZ-i34K-pR.pdf

So, exactly how is "the legal S will really HTF?"
 
My reaction to anyone, except the police in the performance of their duty, trying to physically detain me:

1) "Get out of my way."
2) "Am I under arrest? No? Get out of my way, Now!"
3) *crunch* *splat*
 
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The best you can do in a situation like that is be a good witness. You have *no* authority, let me repeat, *NO*, *ZERO*, *ZILCH*, *NADA* authority to use force to prevent someone from leaving. If you do use force, it would constitute assault in most jurisdictions.

You could and would wind up being personally liable for any injury, as well as taking a trip to the greybar hotel. If you see someone you think is trying to get away with someone else's child, shout, scream, raise the alarm. Follow the person out of the store, stay right on their tail. If they use force on you, you are entitled to defend yourself with reasonable force, but no more.
 
I have to agree with Sindawe & Texas SIG. Parents today, all too often let their children run amok in stores. I guess they think that Wal-Mart is a playground where they can let their children run wild and not keep track of them. Just today, I had to slam on the brakes because some parent lost control of their kids (between 4 & 7), and they almost ran out in front on my truck. A public place is NOT a PLAYGROUND!!! It's DANGEROUS!! You want a playground, take the kids to a park and keep an EYE on them !!! There should be NO reason for ANY store to ever have a "Code Adam". We are ever becoming a "Nanny Society" where "Villages raise our kids". I AM NOT A NANNY!!
 
Your compassion is overwhelming.
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I have plenty of compassion. If I find your lost child, I will return it to your ASAP. If it is injured and in need of medical care, I will do my utmost to see that it gets the needed care. It if it being harmed by a larger/older individual, I will endeavor to stop the harm being done to it. If you ask nicely I may help you look for it, but again your losing it does not grant you any moral or legal authority to detain me if I clearly do not have it.
 
Code Adam or not, you have no legal right to prevent anyone from leaving your store unless you have PERSONALLY seen that person committing a crime.
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That pretty well sums it up, except under Florida law it has to be more than just witnessing a crime, you have to witness a felony before lethal force even starts to become an option. Kidnapping would be a felony - provided of course that it is actually a kidnapping and not just a misuunderstanding.
 
the "Code Adam" instruction is to monitor the exits, and not to detain anyone from leaving.
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Then I stand corrected on that point. I was under the impression, based on what someone told me at a store they work at, that the policy was to lock the doors.


You said something factually incorrect, and then threatened a big lawsuit.
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That's taking what I said out of context. It's a hypothetical situation. I didn't threaten the original poster with anything.


Like I said, I can see where this thread is going. I don't need to be beaten over the head because I had incorrect information.
...as an admitted crappy parent...
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I don't recall admitting to that. Ask anyone that knows me, they'll tell you that I'm one of the most paranoid parents they've ever met when it comes to the whereabouts of my kids. Like I said, it was just a hypothetical situation. But, with my character being under attack by people that don't even know me because of a hypothetical scenario, I think I'll make my exit now. Thanks for clearing up the point above that I was mistaken about.
 
If I understand the "Code Adam" correctly they are not stopping a single indiviual from leaving they are more concerned with a person with children. I do not see how stopping a l.one individual from leaving will prevent a kidnapping, but can understand the "liability' concerns of a superstore. I can hear them now on Okrahs show"I only turned my back for a few minutes, and someone stole my little child, now the store is responsible because they should have been lookig out for us"
Here in Atlanta right after the new Aquarium opened a mother lost her som, and assumed that the aquarium should be rersponsible for her not paying any attention to what, in theory should be her most important, little burden.:scrutiny:
 
If It Was Me...

If it was me, I would stand by the Emergency door and direct everyone to leave by the main exit. If someone used the door I would get their discription, note and report their leaving by that door. If I had radio communication I would call it in. Otherwise, unless I have seen a crime committed, there is nothing else I can do.
 
If you see someone you think is trying to get away with someone else's child, shout, scream, raise the alarm. Follow the person out of the store, stay right on their tail. If they use force on you, you are entitled to defend yourself with reasonable force, but no more.
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I would hope that if someone saw this they would do more than just follow the suspect. You are clearly in the right to use force to defend another person from death or serious bodily harm. Abduction qualifies.

If all your capable of is following, then do it. Frankly I don't think I could live with myself if a kid was abducted and I could have done something to prevent it but didn't for fear of being sued.
 
After giving my first post some more thought, I feel an apology to hoppinglark is in order. I intended my comments to be hypothetical in nature, but after thinking about it, I can see how it didn't appear that way. Poor wording of my thoughts made it sound more threatening than hypothetical. hoppinglark, my apologies if I gave you that impression, I can assure you that wasn't my intention. I'll be more careful about how I put my thoughts into words in the future. The fact that my position was also based on incorrect information didn't help matters, but I already addressed that.

As for anyone who feels compelled to judge me in a disparaging manner, no problem. It's understandable that such people can also be mistaken, since they've never even met me.

By the way...
You are clearly in the right to use force to defend another person from death or serious bodily harm. Abduction qualifies....
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+1
Frankly I don't think I could live with myself if a kid was abducted and I could have done something to prevent it but didn't for fear of being sued.
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+1

I would definitely do more than jump and scream and hope someone else does something. A wise old martial arts instructor who valued personal honor above all else once said to me, "Right action first, worry about your fears later. Lives may depend on it." I always try to keep those words in my mind, which sometimes finds me at odds with people who give more thought to consequences than actions.

And if the 'abduction' were just a misunderstanding? Oh well, life's a b----. At least I could go to bed at night knowing I did the right thing instead of knowing I didn't act when I could have.
 
Unless I'm carrying a squirming duffel bag, I AM going out that door.

Use force against me and I'll have charges brought for assault and kidnapping.

You lost a child? You SAY you lost a child? Is there any evidence you even brought a child in there?

Treating 200 customers like criminals makes about as much sense as doing a house to house search of neighborhoods 5 miles from where the child is lost. Less, actually, since I can't possibly conceal a child in my pockets.

When I was 3 years old I escaped my parents and I was going into and out of stores all up and down the street. Locking down the first store would have been absolutely stupid, and misdirected.

There was a time when people actually used leashes for their rambuctious offspring, but having them run around, out of sight is so much better.

--Travis--
 
For the record, no one without a gun is going to prevent me from ever leaving anywhere. Especially not some $6 an hour store clerk.

I will walk past them, and if they touch me I will defend myself with appropriate force.

They can have whatever "code" they want - I'll go where I please.

If there is a missing kid, I'll help look for him or her. But don't tell me I can't leave your store.
 
I would hope that if someone saw this they would do more than just follow the suspect. You are clearly in the right to use force to defend another person from death or serious bodily harm. Abduction qualifies.
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That is correct.

And how do you know that this child you see throwing a hissy fit is being kidnapped? How do you know it's not just a typical brat who wanted to stay and look at the toy aisle for another 20 minutes when Mommy said it was time to go home and cook supper? Yeah, the kid's squalling and trying to pull away, right? And you've NEVER seen that happen in all your visits to Wal-Mart?

mmike87 said:
For the record, no one without a gun is going to prevent me from ever leaving anywhere. Especially not some $6 an hour store clerk.

I will walk past them, and if they touch me I will defend myself with appropriate force.

They can have whatever "code" they want - I'll go where I please.

If there is a missing kid, I'll help look for him or her. But don't tell me I can't leave your store.
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+1
 
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