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Fast and Furious Report by DOJ Inspector General now available

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Sebastian the Ibis, Sep 20, 2012.

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  1. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Wait, aren't ITAR's actionable under international treaty, as in Mexico can sue the US at the UN or Hague or something.

    Point is F&F either 1. a SMALL group of LOCAL dudes that pushed a SMALL investigation/operation that escaped the radar... (and I think even Neverwinter can agree it isn't)

    OR
    2. a large operation that went to the right levels to 'approve' breaking just about EVERY gun law on the books, and then letting the guns to for NO POINT (come on, have they even bothered to arrest the strawmen?)

    lacking a defined point, (and um, the trace idea, if they wanted that why don't the just trace the m16's we give the mexican army that show up???? -> really?) and then there is the kicker, WHAT was the action that was done with the data

    http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/26/nation/la-na-fast-furious-cable-20110726
    and then there was the whole Obama/Calderon +(major media) push for a AWB
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=az2PCuXpw2K4
    hell Obama held a joint new conference with him at one point.


    so how bout this, take this as warning of how this stuff is done

    OH and on a complete different note, did you know the 1986 Hughes Amendment was actually voted down via electronic count, but passed by 'voice' vote... learn something new every day, so no I don't put something like F&F, stupidity malice,

    remember these are the people who said 'never a let a crisis go to waste'
     
  2. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    well, if this administration gets another term, we'll all find out if they are up to no good.
     
  3. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    The DOJ OIG implies more about Holder than it actually says, in particular in the DOJ OIG investigation of what Bush AG Mukasey knew about Wide Receiver. It confirms what I suspected.

    2012 Jun 12 in testimony before Congress, AG Holder had stated:
    Put that in context in a timeline on "gunwalking":

    2007 Oct 06 - ATF assistant director Hoover ordered the Hernandez Case shut down after Mexican law enforcement failed to interdict a "controlled delivery" across the Mexican border.

    2007 Nov 09 - Michael Mukasey became US AG.

    2007 Nov 16 - USAG Mukasey met with Mexican AG Medina Mora to discuss, among other things, Project Gunrunner. Before the meeting, DOJ staff prepared for Mukasey a briefing paper on Project Gunrunner that mentions the Hernandez Case but not Operation Wide Receiver.

    then in context with the OF&F investigation and testimony:

    2012 Mar 16 - The Holder DOJ Office of Legislative affairs sent a letter to Rep Issa's Committee investigating OF&F mentioning that Mukasey was briefed on Hernandez.

    2012 Jun 12 - Obama Admin USAG Holder angrily declaimed before a Congressional Committee that Mukasey had been briefed on "these kinds of tactics in an operation called Wide Receiver and did nothing to stop them – nothing. Three hundred guns, at least, walked in that instance."

    2012 Jun 14 Senator Grassley responded in a letter to AG Holder that the DOJ had produced no briefing on Operation Wide Receiver to any AG; that DOJ produced a memo on the later and lesser Hernandez Case to AG Mukasey preparatory to a 16 Nov 2007 meeting with his Mexican counterpart Medina Mora.

    2012 Jun 18 DOJ Office of Legislative Affairs (pointedly NOT Holder) responded to Grassley about AG Holder's 12 Jun 2012 testimony, and mentions the 16 Mar 2012 OLA letter.

    Holder either lied or was incompetent when he accused Mukasey of knowing about Wide Receiver, not stopping it and allowing 300 to 400 guns to walk. Mukasey was never in a position to do anything to stop "gunwalking" under Operation Wide Receiver (2006-2007) or "controlled delivery" in cooperation with Mexican police in the Hernadez Case (2007).

    The DOJ OIG Report Sep 2012 describes "that former Attorney General Mukasey was not briefed about Operation Wide Receiver or gun "walking," but on a different and traditional law enforcement tactic that was employed in a different case."
     
  4. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    Absence of internal WH communication isn't relevant to the unsupported claims that Obama was involved. The report showed no coordination on the part of Holder, the pertinent Cabinet member from the DOJ. As has been explained, making the claim of organization on the part of Obama without the link between Holder and the AZ offices requires the assumption of clairvoyance.

    Claiming that the communications within the WH is relevant to proving that Holder or Obama was involved in coordination of the actions of the AZ offices doesn't make logical sense. Internal communications by definition do not involve external parties.

    Ah, thank you for clarifying. I wasn't aware of the neo-Mccarthyism that you were professing. Anyone who doesn't follow your unfounded beliefs of Holder and Obama being involved in a shadow conspiracy to traffic guns for a new AWB is a Communist, I mean, AHSA type.

    He's hiding proof of Holder's clairvoyance. What other reason could there be for Obama to hide the very real WH documents showing Holder knew about F&F? Based on the report, Holder's knowledge would show incontrovertible evidence of clairvoyance.

    Sent using Tapatalk 2
     
  5. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    You spoil the joke when you have to spell out the cognitive dissonance in Deanimators post like that.

    Sent using Tapatalk 2
     
  6. leadcounsel

    leadcounsel member

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    Conspiracies and coverups from an 'open and transparent' administration...

    Quite disappointing and business as usual.

    BTW, if this is the 'truth' then there should be no reason to continue to invoke privilege and not release the documents...
     
  7. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    ....and Leadcounsel nails it in one!
     
  8. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Yes, people WITHHOLD evidence to prove their innocence.

    What would those loathsome curs say to any citizen? "What have you got to hide?"

    As I said, the AHSA types want a new AWB. They're hardly going to condemn a conspiracy to foster one.
     
  9. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    But don't you understand?

    The coverup proves their INNOCENCE.

    Would a guilty person OBSTRUCT JUSTICE???
     
  10. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    I thought it was JUSTICE DEPARTMENT documents that they were refusing to release ( and something like LESS THAN 10% of the Issa subpenaed have been turned over, most redacted to pointlessness. So, if the IG is working off the 10% released etc. well...)

    Really clear and transparent, what conclusion do you expect to hear when all they got to look at was the whitewash?
     
  11. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Guns were being walked. When questioned about it, Washington HQ ATF and DOJ and AG Holder denied the rumors w/o investigating them repeatedly until denial became ridiculous and impossible. Then a OIG investigation was started and kept under wraps for 18 months from Feb 2011 to Sep 2012.

    I note the OIG's statement to Congress that the OF&F investigation began 31 Oct 2009 when a gun store reported four buyers of multiple AK47s to Phoenix ATF.

    Dealers are trained to notice patterns of (a) straw purchase and (b) buying for resale w/o a license and urged to report to ATF. Dealers have lost their FFL for being slack about selling to straws or unlicensed dealers. Usually dealers are told not to sell to identified straw purchasers/unlicensed dealers and the suspect IDs are put on the NICS by ATF to deny sales on BG check. Not under OF&F!! Phoenix ATF urged dealers to sell and to re-stock guns requested by the suspects, and had the NICS blocked so the suspects not only were not denied on a BG check, but that when other agencies ran the names, they would not come up.

    When ATF agents assigned to Phoenix from other jurisdictions objected to gunwalking, they were told to stand down, and when Dodson, Casa and Alt complained and spoke to the OIG and to Congress, they were scapegoated.

    DOJ emails requested under FOIA by The Daily Caller show that DOJ Public Affairs Director Tracy Schmaler was closely coordinated with Media Matters to attack critics of the DOJ and AG Holder over Fast and Furious and other matters.

    I at first thought the BS leaked to Katherine Eban for her "The Truth about the Fast and Furious Scandal" CNN/Fortune 27 Jun 2012 article, only came from David Voth and his lawyers. However, the OIG Report states OIG is investigating Phoenix US Attorney Dennis Burke (credited as architect of the AWB by Sen DeConcini) for furnishing internal documents about whistleblower Dodson to "a reporter". What is suspicious is that Eban had information on Dodson's divorce that may have come from his ATF personnel file; Eban contacted Dodson's ex-wife seeking dirt to smear Dodson to discredit the whistleblowers. Eban blames gunwalking on the gundealers, the NRA, and the ATF whistleblowers. Eban also blames failure of Phoenix ATF and USAO to enforce federal law on straw purchase, dealing w/o FFL and arms export to Mexico on nonexistant state laws on straw purchase, dealing w/o FFL and arms export, as though the federal supremacy clause in the Constitution wasn't there.

    The OIG Report states that Phoenix ATF and USAO did not arrest straw purchasers or their buyers (who were obviously reselling) in order to walk the guns to a "kingpin" gun trafficker; they were perfectly able to stop, interdict and arrest if they wanted to. They chose not to as a matter of policy, supposedly sanctioned by the Organized Crime and Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) status of Operation Fast and Furious. When questions were raised about "gunwalking" the Obama/Holder ATF and DOJ denied it repeatedly without investigation until they no longer could get away with it.

    I have no confidence in the DOJ HQ assurances. Before Congress Holder claimed Mukasey knew about Wide Receiver and let 300 to 400 guns walk anyway. That turned out to be not true, and the DOJ OIG Report proved it not true, at least showing to me some degree of independent investigation.

    As far as Holder desire to re-instate the AWB goes:
    Couple that desire for a new AWB with Obama & Felipe Calderon's Rose Garden appeals for an AWB to stop bloodshed from Calderon's Mexican Drug War, ratcheted up by him sending in the Army in Dec 2006, and the repetition of the 90% myth, debunked by DHS and Strategic Forecasting, it is easy to imagine a dishonest regime pulling a "false flag" operation. Right now there is more suspicion than evidence.

    The DOJ OIG Report comes down hard on Phoenix ATF SAC William Newell, Group Supervisor David Voth, and case agent Hope MacAllister as the most to blame for introducing and perpetuating gun walking under OF&F, but apparently they and their lawyers are saying no, higher-ups knew what they were doing and approved it.

    Plus, while we have seen the joint (House and Senate) Committee Report on Phoenix ATF culpability, Part I of III, we have not seen Part II or Part III yet, which examine culpability above the Phoenix federal district level.
     
  12. Fremmer

    Fremmer Member

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    Nothing less than an investigation by independent counsel will uncover the truth about what obama and holder were planning when holder lied to congress and testified that he didn't know about fast and furious. Why is obama withholding thousands of documents, and when are we going to finally get the truth?

    The family of a murdered border patrol agent deserves to finally get the truth.
     
  13. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    we most probably will never get the truth, most certainly not until after the election, and then only if Obama loses.
     
  14. unspellable

    unspellable Member

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    Something I haven't heard much about.

    Some time before all this blew up Obama made a comment to somebody that the usual tactics for getting anti-gun laws passed weren't going to work this time around and hinted that new tactics were in the works.

    Now we have Fast & Furious on the one hand and Hillary at the UN on the other.
     
  15. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    When he was criticized by fellow anti-gun fanatics, he replied that he was "working under the radar".

    Fast and Furious WAS under the radar until they killed a Border Patrol agent.
     
  16. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    Your amenability to McCarthyism and the Papers Please mentality is hardly justification for a blatant misunderstanding of concepts of reasonable search. Executive privilege is no more a coverup than a refusal to submit to a strip search because your roommate's estranged ex-wife is under investigation. Maybe the roommate is actually in cahoots with the ex-wife despite the surveillance of the wife showing no contact with him; we have no way of knowing that it isn't true unless we can search your rectal cavity. Why would you be obstructing justice?

    You say it's about obstructing justice, but it's really about hiding in the harbor of overbroad requests because there is no more refuge for your position in the evidence.

    There are two sets of documents which were not being released to the Congressional committee:

    1. Internal White House documents
    2. DOJ documents

    Documents from #1 are still covered under executive privilege, while #2 was available to the IG. As has already been covered in the thread, #1 is irrelevant to the investigation, since there's no evidence that the information got to Holder.

    The conclusions that the IG came to were even the same one's from the earlier Congressional committee proceedings which noted that the wiretap paperwork revealed the gun walking. Wiretap approval that would have been approved by Breuer's office; specifically Weinstein's approval acting for Breuer.
     
  17. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Like the Daleks, the Nixonites just keep reappearing out of the void...
     
  18. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    If anything, we have dug our own grave in allowing this to become business as usual. We didn't have a problem during Chertoff and Katrina, Gonzalez and attorney firing, and Rumsfeld with Abu Ghraib.

    Thankfully, the people who were supporting the above have since gained their senses and have come out the strongest against Holder and Obama, having learned from their earlier mistakes.
     
  19. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    The same people who were supporting an AWB before Fast and Furious are still doing so. The death of Brian Terry is UTTERLY inconsequential to them.
     
  20. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    Read the post again, since the point regarding the support for being uncooperative with Congressional investigational committees had gone completely over your head. Feel free to address the content, rather than rambling against something completely unrelated.
     
  21. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Fast and Furious had NO purpose beyond manufacturing support for a new AWB. Those who support Fast and Furious support a new AWB. White House documents are being withheld to conceal the extent of the collusion.
     
  22. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    I agree with the above post. If the Obama Adminstration had been as pure as fresh driven snow, there would be no good reason to not release the requested documents to the Justice Department's own Inspector General. In doing so (if they were without guilt) the charges now being made in this thread would have been mostly moot. As it is they have been made even stronger. Those that are now defending the White House have at best, questionable motives.
     
  23. Neverwinter

    Neverwinter Member

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    I'm sure you could get some people to buy the idea that your refusal to submit to a strip search(see post 41 for context) is to conceal the extent of collusion with the roommate's ex-wife.

    It doesn't make it rational.
     
  24. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    The defenses of Fast and Furious and the subsequent coverup are rational, just not honest.

    There is no RATIONAL explanation for Fast and Furious beyond the manufacture of support for a new AWB.

    There is no RATIONAL explanation for the refusal to provide documents related to the LIES told by Executive Branch personnel other than a desire to conceal evidence of the degree of knowledge and participation by Executive Branch personnel.

    ALL defenses of Fast and Furious and the subsequent coverup are rooted SOLELY in deceit.

    Those who directed the operation are unwilling to reveal that they were willing to trade Brian Terry's life for a renewed AWB.
     
  25. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Nobody ask the president to submit to a strip search....

    What was requested was certain documents that were specifically tied to the Fast & Furious operation. It was the Administration's position that neither the President or Attorney General had any involvment in it, or knowledge of it until a certain time. Had the documents been presented they might (or might not) have made the issue clear, one way or the other. A reasonable person might conclude that if the White House had nothing to conceal, releasing the requested documents would work in their favor. Not doing so would at best, strongly suggest guilt. The President's supporters may try to evade what is an obvious truth, but they are unlikely to make a sale.
     
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