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FBI director wants ISPs to track users

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Manedwolf, Oct 18, 2006.

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  1. Manedwolf

    Manedwolf member

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    Better keep that anonymous proxy up 24/7... Big Brother's eye is getting closer. And closer...

    Just think. Every posting to a gun board, every ammo purchase, all able to be browsed by people wondering just why you're ordering So Much Ammo... Why, you might be a TERRORIST.

     
  2. Flyboy

    Flyboy Member

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    Y'know, I asked a year or two ago, and I don't recall the question was ever answered.

    What is THR's log-retention policy? What records are kept (Apache common, combined, or custom logs), and for how long? Are the backup tapes scrubbed of logs as well?

    Just out of curiosity, but it is relevant to the story--even if the ISP keeps a record associating my account with a given IP address, and even if they can say I visited THR, nobody can say what I did without IP address (unless he's sniffing the traffic, which could be solved by going to an SSL server). The webserver logs are the link between a given post or pageview and an IP address.
     
  3. Rumble

    Rumble Member

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    Wasn't that balance struck somewhere around Amendment IV? :scrutiny:
     
  4. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

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    This would mean the FBI could keep tabs on the Internet usage of congresscritters. The FBI hasn't had this much leverage over politicans since the days of J. Edgar Hoover.

    Pilgrim
     
  5. shooter503

    shooter503 Member

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    Quote from another thread. No comment.
     
  6. Delta608

    Delta608 Member

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    "Wasn't that balance struck somewhere around Amendment IV?"




    Where is it written that the Gov't or anyone else for that matter, cannot record your written free speech..?? My friend, every aspect of your life is recorded for properity....Although there really are paranoid people who are being followed...!!:D
     
  7. dfaugh

    dfaugh Member

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    The biggest problem here is that its highly impractical, or outrageously expensive.

    Keeping track of logins, sites visited and such isn't that big a deal. But to actually log all of the traffic across all of the activities between the user and the website, for any significant lenght of time, would take HUGE amounts of data storage space. The cost of internet access would go WAY up if the ISPs had too try an keep all of that data.
     
  8. Rumble

    Rumble Member

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    No, I understand that--there should be no expectation of privacy for any electronic communication. I was mostly going for the punchy one-liner. Actually, this issue--or the record retention part of it, at least--isn't really materially affected by the 4th, since I would assume that LE would still need to obtain a warrant to look at those records.

    As for the collection of additional data--who I talked to, what I posted, etc.--if the ISP collects it and I take offense at that, my recourse is with the ISP, not the government. I'm not keen on "enhanced information gathering" on my Internet records (even though I have nothing to hide :D), but it's not really under my control.

    I may just switch back to paper correspondence*--at least, with that, there is an expectation of some privacy since such correspondence is enclosed in an envelope and mail tampering is frowned upon.






    * I will do no such thing. I'm more and more black-helicopter-paranoid every day, but I'm not crazy. Writing by hand is too much work.
     
  9. shooter503

    shooter503 Member

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    I imagine the Government only wants the transactions logged so that they can refer back to them if necessary in the future to establish links to suspicious correspondence.

    The job of electronically examining the stored transactions would be enormous.

    However, capability exists to monitor the internet, or selected parts of it, in real time to watch out for keywords, names, phrases. My guess is that the monitoring organisation would pick-up on a keyword then go back and examine all the stored data relating to that internet address (which is more than your log-in name).

    This idea, of course, will not work because no terrorist is going to say "We will blow up the office tonight with a bomb". He is going to say something like "The meeting we arranged will take place as planned according to the schedule we discussed".

    Only the dummies will be caught by this idea but to the government keeping the data is better than letting it be erased so they say keep it.
     
  10. buzz_knox

    buzz_knox Member

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    Rumble and Delta have it. You have the right to speak whatever you wish, but no right to keep your public comments from being recorded by those who "hear" them. And if the service provider you use keeps a record of your coming and going, that's not a violation of your rights as you are using them as a medium to carry out your actions. You can't complain about the doorman remembering your comings and goings if you've asked him to open the door for you. If you've contracted with him to remain silent, that's a separate issue. But I don't think any ISP agreements contain confidentiality clauses on that issue.
     
  11. Delta608

    Delta608 Member

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    Im not EXACTLY sure but AOL and the like are required to keep emails for 180 days and are turned over without suponea. More recent correspondence requires court order....I could find out for sure if interested...Besides do a Google search on "Carnivore" (Spelling..??, FBI-Data mining), if ya want see something interesting....:p
     
  12. DKSuddeth

    DKSuddeth Member

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    I remember the days when the opinions of the people were what mattered to the politicians. Nowadays, all these speeches to military units, law enforcement agencies, and labor union groups makes me feel unwanted by my government. :scrutiny: :confused: :uhoh:
     
  13. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    I'm a small ISP. They could legislate that we have to keep our logs of at least IP addresses assigned to users for a period of time. I wouldn't be happy but it would hardly constitute a record of what you did on the internet. If I were you guys I'd be worried about the larger ISP's the government is already in bed with. These are the people companies like mine buy service from.

    For example, ATT, a major backbone provider for other ISPs has a nifty new database operation they call daytona http://www.research.att.com/~daytona/ It already has 312 TB of data in it and they say it can handle more. Filtering out images, video, programs, etc one could fit ALOT of users data for the course of a long time into a database of that size. We're talking like a year worth of use in a very searchable format perfect for data mining. And ATT is already well known to let the NSA have free access to their system.
     
  14. pcosmar

    pcosmar member

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    Paranoid?

    I am not that paranoid, but I am not doing anything or saying anything that I worry about. If I wanted to, I can hide, reroute,camoflauge,or encript any internet message. I don't.
    I like the idea of tracking the folks who want to KILL me. If the media would ****, and let the terrorists talk, we can listen and learn. And stop them.
    There is a Grandmother out west who was surfing Islamic websites, and caught some bad guys. Good deal. Hack them back.(I don't have the link handy).
    I don't hide, I'm easy to find. Goggle "pcosmar". Don't steal my identity (you don't want to be me). or go ahead,I am on file with every gov agency.
     
  15. Crosshair

    Crosshair Member

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    Hmm, interesting Soybomb. The "Filtering out images, video, programs, etc" would be easy to defeat. In high school the admins would search the user accounts for *.mp3 files in their server disk space and delete them. The students, myself included, would simply rename the file to another extention. *.doc was the most common. I used the AutoCAD file extension since it was easier to justify a 5 meg CAD file than a doc file. Plus I knew the admins computer didn't have AutoCAD on it to actualy check the files.

    It would be easy to create a browser/server software that will encode the data to a JPEG or AVI file. Heck, you could make it a Firefox plugin easily. Thus they would need to save ALL data going across the internet. I doubt that they could create a database that could manage all that data and search for data that is hidden in an image file. 99.9999999% of the time they would end up with the latest porn site I have found. Not to mention that many places offer free internet to customers and there is software that lets you change your MAC address.
     
  16. SoCalShooter

    SoCalShooter Member

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    That's for me to know and not you!
    They should definetly be allowed to monitor public servents such as congressmen and senators and other high officials, average public servents workers and such should not be monitored.
     
  17. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

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    As time has went on network devices have gotten far better at actually ripping open packets as they fly past to determine what is actually taking place. We used to just have to go by port numbers and the like but with things like cisco's nbar its easy to build rules that will defeat older attempts at hiding activity. Really encryption is the best solution and won't require any plug ins at all since all web browsers already support secure connections.

    Changing your mac won't do anything btw, that doesn't make it to the internet. Your isp assigns you an ip address and that is what the internet gets. Your isp probably keeps a log of who had what ip address at what time and date.

    Most of us don't buy into the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" thinking. You can put as much faith into the government to remain honest as you want, but personally I don't have any.
     
  18. dragongoddess

    dragongoddess member

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    Ah to heck with it. Just burn the damn Constitution and get it over with. The terrorists have already won. One really has to wonder why all the speeches to military and police agencies. Are they being programed for a future action against the people of the United States.
     
  19. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    One word: Anomymizer.com ;)
     
  20. Autolycus

    Autolycus Member

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    This is why the government wants the ISP to do it. The ISP will pay for it and deal with all of the hassle.

    Eitherway, I dislike the fact that the government wants to try and do this. It seems that Bush and Co. are trying harder and harder to take our rights away. I think that it will be getting worse and worse as the sheep listen to the arguments made in the name of their safety.
     
  21. GunnySkox

    GunnySkox Member

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    I hope Robert Mueller gets hit by a bus.

    And I hope every ISP tells him to get bent, too.

    ~GnSx
     
  22. Delta608

    Delta608 Member

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    Quote "Eitherway, I dislike the fact that the government wants to try and do this. It seems that Bush and Co. are trying harder and harder to take our rights away. I think that it will be getting worse and worse as the sheep listen to the arguments made in the name of their safety"


    Got news for ya, data mining had been implemented long before G.W. showed up....The axe you have to grind isnt here....:neener: :p
     
  23. alan

    alan Member

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    Re the director's desires, it would be very nice to see ISP's tell him to "go pound salt".

    I doubt that I/we shall see/hear any such statement or advise from ISP's to the director, sad to note, however I do believe it would be something to behold.
     
  24. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    I'm sure America could get along without the F., the B., and the I. a lot easier than freedom of speech.
     
  25. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, I'm my own web host, so everything's run about the same:
    • Apache logs are kept until they rotate off because they're too big. Less than 2 weeks
    • Backups are off-site @ my house; currently that's at about 3 weeks worth of data, though if I ever get around to upgrading my RAID array I'd like to bump it to 6 months or so.
    • I'm one of those "not without an order signed by a judge, you won't" types. For what it's worth.
    Your bigger worry is vBulletin. It tracks anything useful, like every IP address you've posted from, etc. Of course, you can't run an effective forum without those tools or you lose to spammers and trolls, but it's there anyway.

    Now, I'm not of the opinion that any of that really matters. If you believe massive internet surveillance is (or will eventually be) going on, then you can expect packets to be logged at choke-points around the internet. It's surprising what some of those commercial monitoring packages (the sort that run on a rack full of blades) can piece together, whether it's web visits, or VoIP packets, or whatever else.

    As an aside, I'm -><- this close to starting an electronic privacy blog/forum. Any interest? It's really not THR material I'm afraid, though I think it's equally important.
     
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