Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

FBI Duty Ammunition

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by aaronchaim, Nov 26, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. aaronchaim

    aaronchaim Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2
    What ammunition does the FBI currently use in its variety of handgun, rifle, shotgun calibers, for duty and practice? I've had no luck finding this information anywhere online, thought maybe a forumite might know. Thanks in advance.

    Aaron
     
  2. Brian Williams

    Brian Williams Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    9,863
    Location:
    Kampong Cham, Cambodia
    I was shooting at a local range and while packing up a local FBI agent stopped by and while comparing guns, I noticed he was using Federal 40 S&W for a sig and was using federal 357s for a S&W 340 as backup
     
  3. MikePGS

    MikePGS Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2006
    Messages:
    2,348
    Location:
    Metro Detroit, Michigan
    Interesting, I always thought that the FBI carried either Glock 22's, or 23's. Then again, don't they have some sort of list of duty approved weapons?
     
  4. Wild Deuce

    Wild Deuce Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2007
    Messages:
    223
    I think FBI shotguns are loaded with #1 Buck.
     
  5. Soybomb

    Soybomb Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2005
    Messages:
    3,959
    November 19, 2007

    The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has awarded Winchester®
    Ammunition the single largest ammunition contract in the history of
    federal law enforcement worth a maximum of $54 million.

    Winchester Ammunition will produce 40 S&W service ammunition,
    training ammunition, reduced lead training ammunition and frangible
    ammunition for the FBI for one base year, with four, one-year renewal
    options.

    "The innovation behind the enhanced 40 S&W bonded service round is a
    testament to our Winchester engineers and the quality of our
    manufacturing," said Dick Hammett, president, Winchester.

    Winchester's enhanced 40 S&W service ammunition is a 180-grain,
    bonded jacketed hollow point round and was selected over all other
    rounds that were tested. The FBI tests the terminal ballistics of
    each round by shooting a specific test protocol through various
    barriers such as heavy cloth, wallboard, plywood, steel and auto
    glass into ballistic gelatin.

    In addition to the FBI, the contract affects many agencies both
    inside and outside the Department of Justice, including the Drug
    Enforcement Administration, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and
    Explosives and U.S. Marshal Service.

    "On behalf of Winchester, we are extremely proud that our nation's
    premier law enforcement agency has selected Winchester ammunition to
    use in its mission of protecting and defending the United States,"
    said Hammett.

    For more information about Winchester Ammunition and its complete
    line of products visit www.winchester.com

    Media Contact:
    Jonathan Harling jonathan@chevalier-jonatha or CJ Davi
     
  6. aaronchaim

    aaronchaim Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2007
    Messages:
    2
    Last I heard the FBI was doing away with its personally owned program. But somewhere I've seen a list (perhaps now slightly out of date) of authorized POWs and ammo. Anyone?
     
  7. Liko81

    Liko81 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    176
    Well if .40S&W is the only caliber contracted for service pistols, one would think they're going to an issued-only program for duty weapons. The question is what they're issuing, and/or if you have your choice of pistols in that caliber. As long as you can live with the issued weapon as your primary, there's not much to complain about; free practice ammo, free service ammo, and in an issue environment any problem can be solved with a swap from the locker. From what I know of LEAs (which is not much), if you are allowed a backup it can be practically anything, but your backup is totally your gun, and the maintenance/ammo is your responsibility.
     
  8. Mustang51

    Mustang51 Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2007
    Messages:
    716
    Location:
    The Left Coast
    I retired from the FBI several months ago and can tell you that the issue FBI shotgun ammo is both 00 buck and slug rounds. We qualified on the "shotgun #10" course which consisted of shots from the 50 yard line to the 7 yard line with both slug and 00 buck rounds, using both "assembly area" and combat loading techniques.

    The standard FBI sidearms are the Glock 22 or 23's. Although, you will still find agents carrying issue SIG 228's and even a few 226's in 9mm, they are being phased out. And, of course, even though the personally owned weapons (POW) program was suspended in 2007, there are still plenty of guys carrying previously approved SIG 229's, Glock 21's, 17/19's, and 26/27's. Also, SWAT trained agents are issued Springfield 1911's in .45. Agents are no longer authorized to carry personally owned revolvers. I had to give up carrying my S&W model 49 in the ankle rig in about 2006.

    Although Winchester recently got the contract for .40 ammo, there is still a lot of service ammo from previous contracts. At the time of my retirement, I still was carrying Speer Gold Dot ammo and had boxes of Remington Golden Saber .45 and Federal Hydra-shok .40 in my BuCar for back up.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2009
  9. HC

    HC Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    38
    Are all agents issued a long arm? I've read of Remington Model 870P shotguns, Scattergun-modified 870Ps, RRA LAR-15 carbines, and H&K MP5/10SFA3 carbines being used by (non-SWAT) agents, but am curious if an agent has any say in what he's assigned, and if not, whether there's any pattern to who's issued what. Many thanks!

    Cheers

    HANS
     
  10. 9mm+

    9mm+ Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    856
    Location:
    Cary, NC
    Mustang 51 has it correct. One of my local friends is ex-Bureau and said that he carried Sig 228 but current agents carry Glocks in 40S&W. Carrying long rifles will depend on what kind of unit you're assigned to and training quals. For example, FBI SWAT and HRT have different mission requirements and therefore will carry different weapons mixes.
     
  11. Mustang51

    Mustang51 Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2007
    Messages:
    716
    Location:
    The Left Coast
    The Bureau now issues some type of long gun to any agent that wishes one. The standard shotgun is a Remington model 870 with a 14" barrel and rifle sights. Also issued are RRA LAR 15 semi auto .223 carbines, MP5 SF's in 9mm and MP5/10mm with two round burst. Which long arm each agent gets depends to some extent on assignment, inventory of available weapons and whether he/she has qualified with their weapon of choice.

    SWAT and HRT, of course, have a different long guns, to include full auto MP5's, with and without suppressors, Colt M4's and H-S Precision .308 sniper rifles.
     
  12. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5,168
    Federal agencies usually change ammo to spread the wealth. Ammo is selected from an approved list and ordered at a contract price. Today they may be issuing ABC ammo and 6 months from now XYZ ammo.

    http://www.gunreports.com/news/ammo/Winchester-FBI-AMMO_482-1.html

    This link gives the particulars of an ammo contract awarded last year by the FBI to WW.
     
  13. jbrown50

    jbrown50 Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    616
    Location:
    DC
    Mustang51 explains it very accurately.
    As Soybomb pointed out, the 'latest' issue ammo is Winchester Ranger Bonded in .40 S&W and 9mm. The version of this ammo that's sold to regular old citizens is Winchester Supreme Elite Bonded PDX1.
     
  14. xXxplosive

    xXxplosive Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,223
    Location:
    New Jersey
    So why is it then that SWAT Trained Agents use .45ACP and all others are given .40 Cal. For me, I want the .45.........if it's good enough for them.



    Always CC my Combat Commander .45ACP.....................:cool:
     
  15. RockyMtnTactical

    RockyMtnTactical Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2006
    Messages:
    3,539
    My dad is in the bureau. He is issued 165gr Gold Dots for his Glock carry ammo, use to be 165gr Federal Hydra-Shoks.

    Their practice .40 ammo is/was Winchester 165gr FMJ.

    He use to have a 10mm MP5 (with single shot or two round burst), don't recall the ammo he was issued in 10mm, but they weren't Gold Dots. I think it was Winchester.

    .223 ammo is Federal Tactical Bonded 65gr SP's.

    Some of the guys in his squad are SWAT/HRT and they carry .45 1911's. No clue what their carry ammo is.
     
  16. Corporal K

    Corporal K member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    356
    But...but...but Glocks are junk!!! ;)
     
  17. Mustang51

    Mustang51 Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2007
    Messages:
    716
    Location:
    The Left Coast
    I can only speak about the FBI’s practice with respect to ammo purchasing.

    The FBI’s current firearms policy is, in my view, guided by the 1986 shootout in Miami in which 2 agents were killed and 5 agents were wounded. The outcome caused the Bureau to re-think its entire firearms policy and resulted in a number of changes:

    -Because of the difficulties of reloading revolvers under fire, the Bureau changed its long standing policy of “revolvers only” for the general Agent population. Prior to that shootout, only SWAT agents carried autos, mostly S&W 459’s.

    -More long guns on charge out to Agents. Prior to the shootout, the general Agent population usually were required to “check out” a long gun from the gun vault before an arrest and return it afterward. The long gun usually was a bead sighted 18 or 20 inch Remington model 870 12 gauge shotgun or more rarely, a Remington model 760 in .308. After the shootout, more shotguns were on permanent check out to agents, more were fitted with the 14” barrel and the Bureau obtained a supply of H&K MP5 SF’s for issue to the non-SWAT Agents.

    -Because a 9mm silver tip round fired by Jerry Dove failed to penetrate sufficiently to reach Michael Platt’s (one of the murderers involved in the shootout) heart, the Bureau began to test ammunition for penetration, permanent crush cavity, etc. The Bureau now performs ammunition tests before each ammunition contract is let and only ammo that meets minimum criteria is purchased.

    While ammunition changes are common, I think the idea that it changes every 6 months is an exaggeration. I would guess that once every 4 or 5 years would be more accurate.



    It wasn’t that non-SWAT agents couldn’t carry a .45. They could buy and carry various S&W, SIG or Glock .45 ACP weapons. Eventually this was pared down to the Glock .45 and now, of course, the Personally Owned Weapons (POW) program has been suspended. Or at least it was at the time of my retirement last April.

    What they could not do is be issued or purchase a 1911 type .45.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
  18. Mustang51

    Mustang51 Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2007
    Messages:
    716
    Location:
    The Left Coast
    Some people certainly believe that (tupperware guns! lol). My experience with the Glock 23 that I carried was excellent. I put perhaps 10 thousand rounds through it and never had a stoppage. Not one.
     
  19. Corporal K

    Corporal K member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2007
    Messages:
    356
    Mustang51, what was the reason for stopping the POW program? Just curious.
     
  20. kdstrick

    kdstrick Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2009
    Messages:
    215
    Location:
    Down by the Alamo
    Mustang51, thanks for the info! Very interesting.
     
  21. DR505

    DR505 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    57
    Current FBI Issue

    The POW weapon program for the FBI has been recently reinstated, but much reduced. Agents can purchase a Glock 21 (.45 ACP), 22 (.40 S&W), 23(.40 S&W), 26 (9mm), or 27 (.40 S&W). If a SWAT Operator, one can purchase a SA Operator in .45 ACP. All revolvers are no longer authorized...no grandfathering of ANY revolver. However, some of the legacy SIGs that were POWs are still authorized until their service life is over. The S&W 1076 in 10mm is also off the list. Shoulder weapons are no longer on the list.

    Duty ammo for .45 ACP is Rem Golden Saber 230 Grain JHP (non-bonded). The ammo for .40 S&W is the 180 grain Winchester JHP load. The remaining Speer 165 grain Gold Dots are to be used up and not replaced. Duty 9mm is Speer 124 grain Gold Dot ammo. Contrary to an earlier post, the FBI does not switch out ammo willy-nilly on a 6 month basis. There is a long ammo-testing procedure once the proposal for a new ammo contract is published.

    MP-5's are being phased out and M-4 carbines (modified for semi-auto only), a mix of RRA and Colt, are for street agents...1 in 9 twist. SWAT uses a select-fire M-4 with a 1 in 7 twist. Service ammo is 60 grain Winchester w/Nosler partition ammo. Remington 870 is in the inventory and uses slug and 00 buck of the 9 pellet variety. The MP-5/10 uses Federal 190 grain JHP in 10 mm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  22. DR505

    DR505 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    57
    I just looked and saw how old this thread was!
     
  23. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2006
    Messages:
    5,168
    While ammunition changes are common, I think the idea that it changes every 6 months is an exaggeration. I would guess that once every 4 or 5 years would be more accurate.


    I'm a retired Federal LEO (not FBI). I did not say the issued ammo changes every 6 months I said,

    Today they may be issuing ABC ammo and 6 months from now XYZ ammo.


    You may see a situation where you are issued ABC ammo, the ammo contract expires, and six months after ABC is issued XYZ is issued. Some agencies make bulk purchases and ship from one central location so if both ABC and XYZ ammo are approved you may wind up with ABC one quarter and XYZ the next and go back to ABC. There are a few types of ammo "in use" by the FBI within responses here.

    Federal agencies often buy all kinds of stuff off other agency contracts, including the FBI. This gets the buyer a better price and the seller more business. I never saw an ammo contract for more than two years. Agencies want to take advantage of what new technology is available and the seller doesn't want to be screwed if component materials price goes up. The contract may get renewed for the same ammo which means you'll see it around for 4-5 years.
     
  24. DR505

    DR505 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    57
    The FBI is a different animal when it comes to ammo purchases. The FBI announces it will be starting a new contract for ammunition. Requirements for both service and practice ammo are published, as are the testing criteria (searchable on Google). Ammo companies submit ammo for the testing. The ammo that does best in the testing, out of the ammunition submitted by manufacturers competing for the contract, is selected. So, the FBI will select the best ammo from the pool, but it may not actually be the absolute best that is currently available, as a manufacturer may not have submitted their product.
     
  25. DR505

    DR505 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    57
    Temporary shortage of armorers was the reason I heard.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page