FBI Flyers in gun stores

[Fn-P9]

Just got an email from the NRA.....it reads:

FBI OVERBOARD ON SUSPICIOUS CUSTOMER WARNING?: Since the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is responsible for enforcing federal gun laws, dealers and other federal firearm licensees typically contact that agency (or state or local police) when they encounter suspicious customers. So, it raised eyebrows when the FBI began circulating flyers in gun shops and ranges, encouraging owners of those businesses to report suspicious customers to “your local Joint Terrorism Task Force” instead. The flyers first appeared in Connecticut, with a revised version appearing more recently in Utah.

and here is the flyer link: http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/FBInotice00.pdf

This first page is different from the second. One was the revised list.

I find this interesting since I have at one point in time matched nearly all the scary 'suspicious' criteria they say be aware of. What do YOU think

ps since I admitted to "suspicious activity" Im sure Im on a list now. oh well.

 

[ants]

And maybe the NRA is a little overboard also.

Your local Joint Terrorism Task Force includes state and local police, and the BATFE.

That's what makes the NRA's objection so odd. It doesn't matter if you notify local police, the ATF, or your local Joint Terrorism Task Force. It doesn't really matter, report to one or report to all. Big deal.

Unless they just want to bash the FBI.
No problem there, it's actually fun to bash a federal agency.




More important points:

The differences between the first and second flyers is significant, it seems to me.
And, as the OP points out, we all exhibit one trait or another at various times.
It would seem that the exercise of good judgment has been left out of their sage advice.

 

[george d dennis]

that article looks like it was copied out of the f.b.i. s magazine.
the fbi bulletin. theres different articles every month in their
magazine pertaining to law enforcement.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

While I think some of the criteria are a bit hokey, suspicious activity should be reported. To be honest, I don't think some of the list activities are suspicious unless unless combined with multiples of other listed activities.

Some of those that are listed are ones that the gun seller should be using to NOT sell the gun to the person in the first place.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I think the issue here, and why NRA cares, is why guns?

Few of the recent terror attacks in this country involved firearms, really only the Ft Hood act and they have flatly refused to even call that one terrorism. Are these same flyers being placed where people buy other legal items that WERE used in terror acts? Hertz rent trucks, shoes, fertilizer, and computers for flight simulators come to mind.

Maybe, maybe not, but I think that's the objection to the whole thing. Why are gun buyers people to "keep an extra eye on"? That slow, seemingly harmless, demonization of guns and gun owners continues.

Is it an overreaction by NRA? Maybe, but it's an overreaction to put flyers like this all over gun stores and ranges as well, the things listed are pretty common sense items.

Moving this to General Discussions, there really isn't any Legal content, but it's interesting.

 

[Walkalong]

I think the issue here, and why NRA cares, is why guns?

Agreed. Why guns when any gun that may have been used was insignificant in the outcomes. We have all purchased "waterproof" ammo when purchasing surplus military stuff. We have all bemoaned the government persecuting gun owners, etc, etc, and none of us are terrorists. We just want to buy and shoot our guns without being hassled or painted as "dangerous", "on the edge", and all the other false accusations by the anti gun movement.

Are there some nuts out there? Sure there are, but there are also plenty of good laws to deal with them.

Turning citizens against each other is an old trick of the politicians who would rule you. Don't fall for it.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Are these same flyers being placed where people buy other legal items that WERE used in terror acts? Hertz rent trucks, shoes, fertilizer, and computers for flight simulators come to mind.

Good point but to be factual,the rental trucks used were Ryder trucks not Hertz.

 

[ants]

I admire you guys, but the NRA bulletin specifically targets WHO gets notified.

I'm not trying to make the NRA bulletin say something it isn't intended to say, but I'm going to do a little work to clarify and emphasize what it does say:

Since the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is responsible for enforcing federal gun laws, dealers and other federal firearm licensees typically contact that agency (or state or local police) when they encounter suspicious customers... [gun shops are asked] ...to report suspicious customers to your local Joint Terrorism Task Force instead.

I hear ya, TX and Walk, and I'm on board with you both.
No argument with the critical point you make. No argument whatsoever.

But I believe the NRA bulletin was focussed on WHO ya gonna call, not the fact that gun shops get the memo.

The NRA often has a bee in its bonnet for the FBI, and this was a chance to take a jab. Whether one interprets the memo your way or mine, the jab is deserved (in my tiny and humble opinion) although I doubt it will make any difference anyway.

Not trying to poke at you guys, we read it differently.

 

[effengee]

My wife thinks this is biased against women...

I was spouting off about how stupid these indicators are when my wife brought a very valid point to my attention:

This list is biased against women.

Women more often than men will change their appearance, i.e. hair color and/or length, style of hair. Whether or not they wear makeup makes a difference in their appearance. They are MORE likely to not know EVERYTHING there is to know about a particular gun and unlike men, aren't the least bit afraid to ask those who do know. My wife has insisted on paying cash for guns and has even used my credit card to buy ammo! A few times she has asked to be allowed to see if a gun would fit well in her purse for concealed carry purposes and she has also asked about local female shooting groups for her and some friends. And what exactly constitutes an illogical distance to travel to look at guns? We drive for more than an hour to visit our new favorite gun shop.

My wife was even more P-Ohed than I am about this list and thinks they should be putting these lists wherever box cutters are sold.

God I love this woman!

 

[ants]

By golly, I think she's right. They just described my grandmother.

Sorry, Grandma! I'll visit you on Thursdays and Saturdays. In disguise.

 

[Nushif]

Ja, Herr Kommisar, I have zis nagging fear about my neighbor... he has been acting strange, ja? Mowing his lawn late at night und wearing non-brown clothing. Ja? You know how it starts ...

Call me biased, but being a German of the post-post war generation I find the concept of reporting "suspicious" behavior that is not inherently criminal very ... very distasteful. And the fact that it's encouraged even more so.

 

[oldbear]

Interesting, both the post and the flier. Most of one time or another may have matched at least one of the traits listed. If the Feds had suggested watching for a combination of the traits that may be a much better idea.

After UBL being capped I have a feeling that there is more to this than worrying about "straw buyers."

Have a great Memorial Day weekend all

 

[Good&Fruity]

Looks like more Big Brother attempts to get everyone to spy on each other. "Your papers please!" asks the Comcast tech who comes to troubleshoot your cable....

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I think the issue here, and why NRA cares, is why guns?

Because there are already regulations in place whereby FFLs are not to release guns to people who appear to exhibit certain traits or behaviors...is my guess.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Because there are already regulations in place whereby FFLs are not to release guns to people who appear to exhibit certain traits or behaviors...is my guess.

Wanna cite those? The denial reasons are the ones listed on the 4473. If a person meets those requirements I've never seen anything in GCA that says a dealer may not go through with the transfer because the purchaser exhibits certain traits, behaviors, etc.

478.99 C. lists them, among other places.

 

[Owen Sparks]

If the patriot act is not ended it will be misused just like the commerce clause and greatly expanded to investigate all sorts of activities such as your "weapons hoarding" and your "home arsinal" under the name of domestic terrorism.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Here's something that could get me on the naughty list...
More damage could be done other ways to a large building than just shooting people on the ground floor-- or flying planes into them, FIRE is more dangerous, and the feds know it.

But they care about guns?

 

[Ole Coot]

I thought the government(undisputed leaders) had a decree: "Thou Shalt Not Profile!" Wonder if having hair and getting bald fast puts me on their "gotcha" list?

 

[22-rimfire]

I suspect most gun shops are already vigilant.

 

[buck460XVR]

I dunno, it all sounds pretty innocent to me. Reminds one of the days when there was new wanted posters put up in the post office every week. I'm sure there was lots of folk that swore "that picture looks just like me!".

In both versions there are statements to the fact that the FBI is not trying to impede sales to law abiding citizens or to deny anyone their constitutional rights. There are also statements to the fact that any of these actions listed may be exhibited by completely innocent folks. There is also a statement in both versions that says.....

It is important to remember that just because someone's speech, actions, beliefs, appearance, or way of life is different; it does not mean he or she is suspicious.

....it just asks that gun shop owners and the whole community itself be on the lookout for suspicious activity. Living in a small town all my life, this just comes natural. I see someone strange checkin' out my neighbors house, I keep an eye on them and I call it in if their actions support my suspicions. It's called awareness and community support. It's called not stickin' your head in the sand. If the FBI is targeting gun shops, maybe they have a legitimate reason. They have foiled other terrorist plots thru investigation, maybe there is some rhyme to their reason. IMHO, I believe it is intended as a legitimate defense mechanism to prevent terrorism and not an attempt by Obama to divide and conquer our Democracy and instill his Totalitarian regime on us........

Turning citizens against each other is an old trick of the politicians who would rule you. Don't fall for it.

 

[jfrey]

I never get the part about interest in ammo that will penetrate body armour. Most any hunting rifle round will do it easily. So will a big knife, but they don't tell you that. Stuff like this is just designed to stir people up and get old ladies looking at everyone in their neighborhood.

 

[ErikO]

Crap! I pay in cash! I must be a terrorist! lol

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

the FBI is part of the dept of homeland security, guys. they're looking for terrorists to keep america safe, not infringing your 2nd amen rights.

terrorists obviously buy guns, rather smart move by the FBI to circulate flyers in gunshops.

if you're there to buy a gun, and aren't a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. the NRA thinks everything that the government does is an "assault on the 2nd amen".

 

[Walkalong]

Pay no attention the the man behind the curtain.

They don't buy them in gun shops.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

They don't buy them in gun shops.

how do you know?