FBI Requirements for Duty Ammunition for Handguns

[Kleanbore]

More than one recent thread has discussed gel testing of handgun ammunition, and in a couple, the subject of "FBI requirements" has come up.

Okay, just what are those "FBI requirements"?

I have never looked at an FBI procurement solicitation for ammunition, but I do know one thing: the FBI does not order handgun ammunition on the basis of what is printed on the label.

Rather, they invite offerers to submit ammunition for testing, by the FBI. There are some specific requirements, including minimum and maximum penetration that must be met in different, defined tests (that's the definition of a requirement).

Whether the requirements are provided in detail in each solicitation or by reference to other documents I do not know, but it does not matter.

A typical series of penetration tests involves forty shots. One 6x6x16 block of gel is used for each shot.

The gel is 10% gelatin by weight, maintained at 4°C for 4 days before testing, calibrated with 0.177” steel BB at 590 ft/s ± 15 ft/s, with a BB penetration depth from 2-15/16” to 3-3/4”.

There are five shots fired in each test. All are fired at a distance of ten feet of the gelatin block.

Test barrels and duty firearms are used and specified.

The tests are as follows:

1. Bare gelatin, the face of which is set ten feet from the muzzle of the test barrel or service weapon.
2. Gelatin covered with four layers of heavy clothing (that test has been revised over time, as down clothing has become less common)
3. Gelatin with light clothing, with an intermediate barrier of two pieces of 20 gage hot -rolled galvanized steel, standing in for a car door
4. Gelatin with light clothing, placed 18 inches behind the rearmost of two pieces of ½-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart, to simulate a typical building interior wall.
   
5. Gelatin with light clothing, with an intermediate barrier of one piece of 3/4" "AA" fir plywood set 18 inches in front of the gelatin bloc, to simulate a door or wall timbers.
   
6. Gelatin with light clothing, with an intermediate barrier of one piece of A.S.I. ¼-inch laminated automobile safety glass set at an angle of 45 degrees to the horizontal and 15 degrees to the side.

Ammunition submitted in response to FBI procurement solicitations for duty ammunition must meet or exceed performance requirements of 12-18 inch penetration in the gel in each test, and show uniform repeatable penetration, and 1.5 times caliber expansion, and high bullet weight retention.

Meeting these will not necessarily ensure a contract award. Different ammunition will perform differently in each of the tests, and the FBI selects winners on the basis of the scores achieved in the testing. They can and have selected more than one product.

Solicitations have been issued for 9MM, .40, and .45 caliber ammunition.

The most recent large FBI purchase contact for 9mm ammunition was split between Hornady, Vista Outdoor, and Winchester.

Under the Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR), these are considered Commercial Off-the-Shelf ("COTS") contracts--they call for the delivery of commercial products developed by the offerors without FBI participation or direction, and at the expense of the offerors.

The FBI sets the performance and other requirements and performs the testing and evaluation.

 

[481]

Thanks for posting the factual material--free of "clutter"--for those seeking it, Kleanbore. Certainly, the THR membership will find it to be both informative and useful.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

Sadly, those wonderfully objective-based requirements will still have to stand up against the subjective, real-world issue of recoil/control in pained and undertrained wrists.

I sincerely hope that they use these requirements to shout down the utopians who think deadly force is also an issue of comfort.

Todd.

 

[Pat Riot]

To add to the info here are some links:

FBI 9mm selection 2018
https://www.bluesheepdog.com/2018/05/31/f-b-i-selects-winchester-9mm-ammunition/
https://www.bluesheepdog.com/2018/05/31/f-b-i-selects-winchester-9mm-ammunition/
FBI 9mm selection 2018:

https://press.hornady.com/release/2018/04/26/hornady-awarded-fbi-9mmp-service-ammunition-contract/

FBI 9mm selection 2015:
https://www.policemag.com/356510/fbi-going-back-to-9mm-ammunition

It appears that they do approve more than one product for use within the agency for a particular round.
When I started this post I had a bunch of links for .40 S&W and other historical info on ammo but decided this was quite enough. Especially when I felt a slight headache coming on.
Man, those Federal boys can make things confusing.

 

[BSA1]

The 147 gr. JHP and Hornady Critical Duty are interesting choices to me. I intend to buy some to see what I have been missing. I carry 124 gr. JHP as it seems like a good compromise.

 

[reddog81]

Do they release the results of the tests or just announce who the winners are? It’d be interesting to see a list of the different rounds tested and a summary of how they performed.

 

[Kleanbore]

I seriously doubt that the FBI could release the results.

We know that the contracts were for rounds that successfully penetrated each if the barriers (the auto glass is a tough one) and met the penetration standards with adequate expansion.

I'm sure you realize that the locations and angles of the entry wounds, how many hits are scored, and the posture and condition of the attacker will have a lot more impact on your results in the gravest extreme than variations in terminal ballistics among the three rounds.

 

[TikkaShooter]

I did a search and I apologize if this has been posted before.

"FBI Awards Glock with $85 Million Contract for 9mm Pistols
by MAX SLOWIK on JUNE 30, 2016
The Federal Bureau of Investigation has awarded Glock an $85 million contract for new handguns and parts. The purchase is part of the FBI’s move to adopt 9mm Luger as their primary cartridge, replacing .40 S&W."
https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/fbi-awards-glock-with-85-million-contract-for-9mm-pistols/

https://sofrep.com/gear/the-reasons-why-fbi-went-to-back-to-9mm/

 

[Kendahl]

FBI Awards Glock with $85 Million Contract for 9mm Pistols

I had it in my head that the FBI selected the Sig P320. Apparently not.

 

[TikkaShooter]

Buying $85 million would get a major discount..

My big surprise was the FBI going back to 9 mm.. When the FBI went to .40; so did a lot of LE agencies.

 

[herrwalther]

My big surprise was the FBI going back to 9 mm.. When the FBI went to .40; so did a lot of LE agencies.

Same reason everyone is going back to 9mm: higher magazine capacity, lower recoil for follow up shots, lower recoil for smaller/female agents, less expensive ammo cost.

 

[C-grunt]

Buying $85 million would get a major discount..

My big surprise was the FBI going back to 9 mm.. When the FBI went to .40; so did a lot of LE agencies.

And now a lot of LE agencies are going back to 9mm.

 

[Jim Watson]

And, you may shoot only FBI issue ammo in your FBI issue pistol. You may not buy the same UPC for extra practice. I was told this by a Fed who is an enthusiast and bought a duplicate gun for matches.

 

[TikkaShooter]

And now a lot of LE agencies are going back to 9mm.

The FBI has been, what can I say other than rather humorous to watch. They shot more ammo than hits at a shoot out; so they went to the 10 mm.. Then, they realized a lot of their agents couldn't handle the 10 mm; so they went to the .40 and now returned to the 9?

 

[Hartkopf]

What do agencies do about lot variation? Does the FBI, or whoever else, test each specific lot?

One advantage to backyard testing is being able to pick out ineffective ammo that possibly was rejected and got dumped to online buyers at a huge discount. By ineffective I mean a hollow point that will not expand. I bought 6 boxes of a well known, tested by Dr Roberts, used by multiple agencies around the country, best of the best ammo. When shot into clear gel it would not expand after passing through 2 layers of denim. It expanded as advertise in bare gel and 2 layers of cotton T shirt, or just bare gel. This ammo was VERY CHEAP online. Possibly rejected?

I then tested two different other "approved list" ammo and both expanded perfectly through denim.

 

[Kleanbore]

What do agencies do about lot variation?

I suspect that they are not concerned about it and that they rely upon the suppliers.

Does the FBI, or whoever else, test each specific lot?

Manufacturers customarily test examples from each lot, in various limited ways designed to detect product variation.

Today's in-process manufacturing controls minimize variation.

One advantage to backyard testing is being able to pick out ineffective ammo that possibly was rejected...Do you really expect that ammunition from such lots would actually be sold?

Do you really expect that such lots would be sold?

Do really you think it would be worth the effort to make and calibrate forty blocks of gelatin, control its temperature, buy and set up the barrier materials, and perform your own testing to ant detect such manufacturing anomalies that made it through lot testing??

I bought 6 boxes of a well known, tested by Dr Roberts, used by multiple agencies around the country, best of the best ammo.

When was this? Was it modern ammunition? Who is Dr. Roberts?

Why so you attribute these alleged failures to lot variation, rather than to problems with your testing??

 

[Hartkopf]

Kleanbore,

I have spent 29 years in manufacturing (not of ammunition). Bad lots happen. It's a matter of where the rejects go, not if rejects happen. (Boeing can make a bad lot of 737 Max jets, and sell em with a smile)

It makes perfect sense for rejected lots to be pawned off at a discount to online sellers and bought by average gun enthusiasts who will probably never test it. It is better business sense than scrapping thousands of rounds.

My testing has been reliable and repeatable for testing bullet expansion with aprox 20 different cartridges. I sometimes share my results but I will not defend or argue in favor of my testing. It is for my benefit and others can shoot holes in my results if they like, I don't mind a bit. I just know what ammo I will not carry in the winter!

Only two cartridges were complete failures to expand in denim. One was very cheap budget ammo made overseas and the other was the highly touted ammo I just posted about.

I know very little about Dr Roberts. He has posted on another firearms site and has done extensive ammo testing. Many people value his results and opinion but that means very little to me when his testing was done a few years ago and many new lots have been made since that time. And online sellers discount some ammo to the point buyers should be asking if it's too good to be true.

 

[Kleanbore]

It makes perfect sense for rejected lots to be pawned off at a discount to online sellers

Do you really believe that the procedures and internal controls of any reputable ammunition manufacturer would permit that, or would not require reasonable steps to ensure that it does not happen?

I have seen bad factory handgun ammunition. I inspect each round of defensive ammunition.

The bad ones were not from rejected lots.

Boeing can make a bad lot of 737 Max jets, and sell em with a smile)

"Lots", in aircraft manufacturing, does not have the meaning that you must think it does.

And the 737 MAX issues are one of design, not variation among "lots".

 

[Jim Watson]

It makes perfect sense for rejected lots to be pawned off at a discount to online sellers

Do you really believe that the procedures and internal controls of any reputable ammunition manufacturer would permit that, or would not require reasonable steps to ensure that it does not happen?

Actually, they do. The biggest volume dealer in this area will have pallets of factory second ammo for sale. Some labeled "Not for duty."

 

[Hartkopf]

"Lots", in aircraft manufacturing, does not have the meaning that you must think it does.

And the 737 MAX issues are one of design, not variation among "lots".

Yes this was not an example of lot variation. More an example of what reputable manufactures are capable of.
We could go on for weeks about the drug industry.


When a part is rejected internally, there is often another preplanned route for those parts, to reduce company losses. This could apply to smaller "set up" runs also where a new lot is being dialed in, not just huge lots.

My original question was if the end user (the FBI for example) tested new lots. A dedicated team of three and a small testing facility would cost what 5 million a year? It would be typical I guess for large agencies to not understand the finer points of what they're dealing with and assume todays modern equipment will produce perfect results every time. And that modern profit margins will not possibly effect quality. On going testing would assure quality.

 

[94045]

I suspect that they are not concerned about it and that they rely upon the suppliers.

Manufacturers customarily test examples from each lot, in various limited ways designed to detect product variation.

Today's in-process manufacturing controls minimize variation.



Do you really expect that such lots would be sold?

Do really you think it would be worth the effort to make and calibrate forty blocks of gelatin, control its temperature, buy and set up the barrier materials, and perform your own testing to ant detect such manufacturing anomalies that made it through lot testing??

When was this? Was it modern ammunition? Who is Dr. Roberts?

Why so you attribute these alleged failures to lot variation, rather than to problems with your testing??

Gold Dot G2 - After FBI Testing and release a lot of failures to expand were noted once released and others began testing. I think it was eventually blamed on worn cutters causing to shallow skives on jackets. So it can and does happen.

I have bought Gold Dots cheap at an LGS marked for "Practice Only" that had varying primer seating depths. I picked out the ones with good depth for carry and shot the others (with an occasional misfire) for practice and function testing.

Seconds are sold into the market by suppliers. A "Seconds" sticker alone usually means cosmetic blemish only. ""Seconds" & "Practice Only" are rounds with functional defects of a non-dangerous nature.

 

[Hartkopf]

Gold Dot G2 - After FBI Testing and release a lot of failures to expand were noted once released and others began testing. I think it was eventually blamed on worn cutters causing to shallow skives on jackets. So it can and does happen.

I have bought Gold Dots cheap at an LGS marked for "Practice Only" that had varying primer seating depths. I picked out the ones with good depth for carry and shot the others (with an occasional misfire) for practice and function testing.

Seconds are sold into the market by suppliers. A "Seconds" sticker alone usually means cosmetic blemish only. ""Seconds" & "Practice Only" are rounds with functional defects of a non-dangerous nature.

I noticed the lack of expansion others were having with G2s but I haven’t tested those yet. I also noticed strangle deep primer depths on some other Gold Dots and now I need to double check what I have. I didn’t realize this too was a source of rejections. Thanks!

 

[Kleanbore]

Actually, they do [allow rejected lots to be pawned off at a discount to online sellers and bought by average gun enthusiasts who will probably never test it.].

Not lawfully.

The biggest volume dealer in this area will have pallets of factory second ammo for sale. Some labeled "Not for duty."

Yes, I should have metnitoned that . Factory seconds can be sold, as long as they are properly labeled and identified. That sold by SAAMI participants will, however, meet SAAMI specs.

My original question was if the end user (the FBI for example) tested new lots.

I am not aware of any Federal procurement in which an end user--prime contractor or the procuring agency -- performs lot acceptance testing of components. NASA does not do so for pyrotechnic devices, or for anything else, used in manned space flight, the launch of high cost satellites, or anything else.

t would be typical I guess for large agencies to not understand the finer points of what they're dealing with and assume todays modern equipment will produce perfect results every time.

That's not it at all. They simply require that what they buy meets the specs.

And that modern profit margins will not possibly effect quality.

What?

Imagine the profit impact of a lot of bad ammo sold under an FBI contract.

On going testing would assure quality.

Yes, but it woul be completely impractical for suppliers to deliver every lot and have for the customer perform acceptance testing.

Seconds are sold into the market by suppliers. A "Seconds" sticker alone usually means cosmetic blemish only. ""Seconds" & "Practice Only" are rounds with functional defects of a non-dangerous nature.

Yes.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Who is Dr. Roberts?

I'm surprised you had to ask that question

Dr. Gary Roberts is the guy who tells the FBI what to buy


https://modernserviceweapons.com/?author=5

ABOUT GARY ROBERTS
Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center where he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.


He's the heir apparent to Dr. Martin Fackler. He is recognized as the leading authority by noted SMEs such as Tom Givens, Kathy Jackson and Massad Ayoob among others.

 

[Dibbs]

The FBI has been, what can I say other than rather humorous to watch. They shot more ammo than hits at a shoot out; so they went to the 10 mm.. Then, they realized a lot of their agents couldn't handle the 10 mm; so they went to the .40 and now returned to the 9?

I didn't want to be the first to say this, but between these arbitrary caliber decisions, and the recent conduct of their heirarchy, (not to engage in a political discussion, at this point) it seems that the FBI, for many of us, are a whole lot more like The Bass Channel, than a respectable paradigm of caliber selection. Especially for those of us who shoot 1006s, 1066s, and 1076s, as well as many other 10mm handguns, and appreciate the round for the special performer it is.