Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time

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I don't understand the problem with cooperating when nothing is at stake.

Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something
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If you think about it these two statements (both by Birdmang) really aren’t that far out there. I mean isn’t this exactly what we’re indoctrinated with from kindergarten up? Along with “ The only people who plead the fifth are criminals”.

So when someone shows up on THR spouting them why should it surprise us?

Honestly for the most part these are true statements, but they don’t take into account that police (regardless what variety) do make mistakes. They also don’t take into account that with so many laws on the books (even the justice department doesn’t know how many) you could place yourself at risk by confessing to a crime that you don’t even know is a crime.

Bottom line, regardless of my guilt or innocence it is in my best interest not to answer any questions with out seeking the advice of counsel. So when the ATF shows up on my front porch asking about a perfectly legal action I took they will be referred to my attorney.

As far as the two guns a week rule how long do you think it’s going to take until the bad guys (if any) just start spreading out their purchases or simply buying their guns private sale or doing what they have been all along and stealing them?

As usual the only people affected by this will be the law abiding citizen
 
Maybe my views are a little Utopian on the American government agencies and how they act or should be acting, but this can be discussed without anger or personal shots.
 
Maybe my views are a little Utopian on the American government agencies and how they act or should be acting, but this can be discussed without anger or personal shots.

I think you're OK on this. I have my doubts on whether the federal government is serving us or the highest bider but the ATF does have a job to do.
 
Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something

Or if unbeknownst to you, a simple mistake has been made somewhere. That's what these ATF agents are employed to do.

I know, I know. You either don't make mistakes or you are well aware of each one you've ever made. Lucky you.
 
:
Should the feds question everyone who has an internet connection to see if they have any child pornography? Should everyone who buys a bag of fertilizer at home depot be questioned?
That has nothing to do with whether or not the feds should conduct investigations of people suspected of strawman purchasing. And IMHO, the answer to that question is yes they should and they should do so vigorously.

it may have nothing to do with it, but it is a related argument. Let me rephrase it: Should the feds question you because you have something that might be usable in a criminal act?
Bank account: you might be tax frauding. Screwdriver: can be used to kill. Cash: drug money? did you report it for taxes? Your car: does it meet all enviro standards? might it be used in a drive-by? hit and run? Power Drill: might it be used to break into a building?


OK, so that means the ATF ALREADY traced back these guns and are going to visit the people who bought them and ask them how they ended up in Mexico...
Another tip took agents on a 30-minute drive from the shack to a sprawling home with a pool in the back and an American flag out front.

It turned out two handguns, of a type drug gangsters prefer, were bought by a pastor for target practice.

Hmmm... so can someone please explain how this guy's serial numbers were traced from Mexico when they were never in Mexico?
ATF is NOT just checking up on guns traced from Mexico, they are checking all the multiple purchasers, which in and of itself is NOT in any way probable cause for a crime. The ONLY WAY I could see this one as justified is if he had OTHER firearms that were traced from Mexico, and the two pistols were not the reason he was talked to. Which, given the story, was not the case.
 
Your freedom will only be at stake if you are hiding something.
Did you ever ask Richard Jewell or the Duke lacrosse team about that?

How about if the agents in question are incompetent and don't know the law and your rights?

How about if the agents in question are malicious and don't care about the law and your rights?

How about if YOU don't know the law and your rights and inadvertently incriminate yourself in a crime you didn't even have anything to do with?

Do you have a lot of experience conducting or being the subject of criminal investigations? If not, how do you know whether your rights are being violated? How do you know if you're falsely incriminating yourself?

Talking to LEOs in a criminal investigation without competent legal counsel present is the equivalent of performing brain surgery on yourself. Your first mistake could be your last.
 
I think what the ATF is doing here is completely illegal for a number of reasons.

ATF 2010 Budget - Hit CTRL-F and use "trace" as your search term.

ATF Firearm Trace Reports - State by state reports on firearms trace information.

ATF Trace Request Form

Those links should provide sufficient proof that the ATF does in fact do data mining on firearms, and traces them from manufacturer, to dealer, to original purchaser using trace data.

The Misuse of BATF Firearms Tracing Data - For those still confused on what an ATF Trace is, or how it works, here is an excellent and very well sourced article explaining what, how, and why it is. The topic addressed by that article is different than what I am addressing here, but it still explains what firearm trace data is, very well.

Now, all of the above seems perfectly above board, business as usual, and doesn't seem to be against any law. In order to trace a firearm using the above process, the ATF has to have a firearm (used in a crime) in hand in order to use its serial number to conduct the trace. This isn't the problem though, nor is it why people are up in arms. People are hopping mad because of the fact that the ATF has started using a trace process similar to the above, but in a different way, and in violation of law in order to trace firearms, without actually having a physical firearm in hand to begin the trace. Instead of tracing guns that have been recovered from crimes, the ATF has launched an effort to witch hunt individuals that have bought guns that the ATF has deemed "gangster friendly" or "Mexico Desired." That is their focus through "Project Gunrunner" and it is something they did many years back in a program called "Operation Forward Trace" under the Clinton Administration. I believe they are going about this in a highly suspect, and I believe; completely illegal manner. First, let me point out 3 things that the ATF is doing that I believe are illegal.

1) Violating the FOPA by recording private buyer information from form 4473 from FFL holders.

2) Violating the Tiahrt Amendment by using the illegally obtained data to conduct baseless investigations into private citizens who legally purchased the guns they've decided to target in their witch hunt.

3) Are threatening FFL holders who refuse to assist them in breaking the law with legal action, and threatening to revoke their license.

Let's talk about the "Tiahrt Amendment" for a minute, so I can lay out why what the ATF is doing is illegal. President Obama singled out this piece of law in his campaign, and its still on the White House Website as a goal to get repealed. He wants it gone, as do other gun control proponents, specifically because it limits what the ATF and other agencies can do with firearm trace data. Specifically, the "Tiahrt Amendment" does the following:

1) Prohibits the ATF from using trace data or releasing it to federal, state, and local agencies, unless in connection with and for use in a bona fide criminal investigation or prosecution.

In other words, you cannot use the trace data unless it is part of a legitimate criminal investigation into a crime that you already know has occurred. It does not allow using the data for a witch hunt to try and create an investigation.

2) Requires the FBI to destroy any record of a NICS background check within 24 hours of the check being conducted, and prohibits retention of any of this information in any kind of a government database.

The US Government has been sued by the NRA for failure to destroy this information in accordance with law before, but clearly it still remains a problem as the ATF has found a new way to get around it.

3) Prohibits the ATF from releasing "firearm trace data" on the basis that it serves no useful purpose. The Congressional Research Service has repeatedly said "firearm trace data may be biased" and "cannot be used to test for statistical significance between firearm traces in general and the wider population of firearms available to criminals or the wider American public."(Congressional Research Service, Gun Control: Statutory Disclosure Limitations on ATF Firearms Trace Data and Multiple Handgun Sales Reports 3 (June 30, 2006).) These limitations exist because the "tracing system is an operational system designed to help law enforcement agencies identify the ownership path of individual firearms. It was not designed to collect statistics."(Congressional Research Service, Assault Weapons@: Military-Style Semiautomatic Firearms Facts and Issues (May 13, 1992).)

Regardless of that prohibition, the ATF is farming this data out to the GAO, elected reps, and the media to use as a statistical reference in pushing the garbage about US guns in Mexico. The same body that said the data was statistically useless (Congress) has been gleefully using it for statistics to drum up support for new gun regulations. Here's some glaring proof of that in an ATF Testimony before Congress by numerous ATF Agents. These agents used the "firearm trace data" as statistical proof of the guns from the US to Mexico "problem." Nevermind, Congress has already told the ATF such as use is illegal and that the data is effectively useless for this purpose.

Now let's talk about how the ATF is violating FOPA. The ATF is in violation of the FOPA (Firearm Owner Protection Act) by conducting audits of gun dealers Form 4473 (Firearm Transfer Form) and collecting the names of the buyers off of those forms.

THE FIREARMS OWNERS' PROTECTION ACT:
A HISTORICAL AND LEGAL PERSPECTIVE
- This is a incredibly comprehensive study of the FOPA and it demonstrates the following abuses by the ATF:

1) Gathering the names of buyers off of Form 4473.

The FOPA states the following in regard to inspection of licensee information:
1. Inspection and Acquisition of Licensee Records
The Gun Control Act required licensees to maintain records of firearm acquisitions, dispositions, and inventories. Furthermore, it permitted warrantless inspection of these "at all reasonable times," and broadly authorized the Secretary to require submission of reports on the records' content. FOPA establishes significant restrictions on the two latter powers. In general, administrative inspections of licensee records now require a magistrate's warrant, based on a showing of reasonable cause to believe evidence of a violation may be found. Three exceptions, however, nearly swallow this rule. Neither warrant nor reasonable cause is needed for (1) a reasonable inquiry in the course of a criminal investigation of a person other than the licensee; (2) an annual inspection for ensuring compliance with recordkeeping requirements; or (3) tracing a firearm in the course of a bona fide criminal investigation. While (p.655)these sizably reduce application of the warrant and cause requirement, it remains effective for its primary purpose in any event: to prevent inspections undertaken without immediate law enforcement need, or abused for the purpose of harassment.

FOPA also institutes some measures designed to minimize the harassment potential of an otherwise authorized inspection or search. Only records material to a violation of law may be seized and even as to these, copies must be furnished the licensee within a reasonable time. The unusual appearance of the last protection vanishes upon reflection; because a licensee is legally bound to buy and sell only upon recordation, removal of his records is more than an inconvenience.

The power of the Secretary to acquire licensee records is likewise limited by FOPA. Requirements to (1) submit records upon going out of business, (2) submit a report upon sale of more than one handgun to the same person during the same week and (3) submit reports of sales when ordered to do so by the Secretary, are enacted into law. Conversely, the Secretary is forbidden to require submission of reports "except as expressly required by this section." Paralleling this prohibition is the proviso that no (p.656)future regulation may require that any records required by the Act "be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any state or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established."

In other words, keep your da*n hands off of the private data records from legal firearms transactions, unless you have a legal, protected, legitimate reason to obtain it in the course of an investigation into a known crime.

The ATF is violating this prohibition by searching through the records of border state FFL holders, and pulling the names and addresses of buyers of certain types of guns, in order to go investigate them and ask them why they bought the guns, what they did with them, and to physically inspect them. Granted, since they don't have a warrant, they are only asking, but they got to this point by illegally obtaining privately protected information. They should never legally have had access to this information in the first place, PERIOD! Because most people are intimidated by questioning from a Federal Agent, and because they typically don't know their own rights, they are volunteering information to the ATF that the ATF has no legal justification for knowing, much less even asking about at all. It is a witch hunt clearly intended to find evidence of possible crimes.

Evidence of such investigations occurring:


100 Agents sent to Texas
- These agents will be solely devoted to "Project Gunrunner" and developing leads to try and find people who may be selling guns to Mexican gun smugglers.

Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time - This article has a few references that indicate the ATF is getting their information through dealer records, and not because they have any crime guns in hand. It specifically states that because "the government can’t compile databases on gun owners under federal law, Agents instead review firearms dealers’ records in person."

HOUSTONIAN SENTENCED TO PRISON FOR LYING TO BUY GUNS - In this link, the ATF itself admits it began an investigation into Hernandez after a routine regulatory inspection of a local firearms dealer’s records showed the cash purchases of a large number of military-style firearms. Now granted, this guy was a scumbag, and he was breaking the law, but the ATF broke the law in order to find that information out. They used privately protected information to begin an investigation into someone, solely on the basis of information they obtained by violating the Firearm Owner Protection Act. And they didn't discover in the inspection of the forms that these purchases were cash, they would have needed the FFL to disclose that as it isn't something that is recorded on the firearm transfer form. Thus they were collecting private transaction data as well, without cause or a warrant. That's also illegal and is privately protected financial information. The ATF would have caught up with this guy legally, as some of the guns he bought were eventually recovered in Mexico. Upon that legitimate criminal use being discovered, the legitimate use of trace data would have led them to Hernandez.

ATF: Phoenix Gun Dealer Supplied Mexican Drug Cartels - In this article, the ATF again used information obtained from Form 4473, in violation of FOPA, to begin an investigation as a result of "pattern buying that looked suspicious." According to federal and local officials, the investigation began after an ATF review of X Caliber's records showed "an obvious pattern of firearms purchases consistent with firearms trafficking." Again, the ATF busted a scumbag, but they did so using illegally obtained information.

In an effort to ramp up arrests, anecdotal evidence is springing up around the Internet from people who are saying the ATF is showing up at their door to ask them about weapons they purchased legally. These people consistently say they have never sold weapons to anyone, that the weapons are still in their possession, and that the ATF is demanding to see the physical firearm for inspection. Granted, these are anecdotal, but they have been happening consistent with the news stories above, and the description of events in each case is virtually identical in nature. The NRA has actually received enough member complaints of these activities that they have set up a number to call to report the actions, and they are looking into the complaints.

Some links to people currently alleging these events:

Air Force Soldier contacted by ATF about guns bought in Texas. Note, the only way the ATF could know about these guns is by obtaining info on the buyer from the Form 4473, a violation of FOPA & the Tiahrt Amendment.

Contacted by BATFE today!! *Update* - This one is a guy who knew his rights and told the ATF no, he wanted to talk to his lawyer. Upon advice from the lawyer, he told the ATF they'd need a warrant. He alleges the ATF got nasty upon that revelation. He also states he hasn't sold so the only way the ATF could get his info, again, is by violating FOPA and Tiahrt Amendment by stealing it off of a Form 4473.

I'm in SE Texas ( the center of the gravity of Project Gunner- see atf.gov) and had a check last week. - This guy is a dealer and he alleges that the ATF reviewed his records, specifically looking for buyers with unusual numbers purchased of certain models. He states that the only guy the agent was interested in was one that met the "gangster preferred" gun model criteria, and happened to be his cousin. This information was obtained in violation of FOPA & the Tiahrt Amendment. The next post, a dealer from Ft Worth alleges he had an agent in specifically racially profiling for hispanics.

ATF Agents had copies of the Form 4473 - This guy states 2 ATF agents showed up asking about guns he'd bought, and they actually had copies of the Form 4473 he filled out. That is a major no-no and a HUGE violation of multiple sections of the FOPA. To me, it is additional evidence that the ATF is illegally reverse tracing firearms to try and drum up leads to create criminal investigations.

NRA - This article is an alert to NRA members that a substantial number of their members have been approached by ATF Agents regarding legally owned weapons. It also gives info on how to report these events to the NRA, and how to seek legal counsel to protect your privacy. It also states "some of the agents have used heavy-handed tactics. One reportedly demanded that a gun owner return home early from a business trip, while another threatened to "report" an NRA member as "refusing to cooperate."

This is probably insufficient evidence for most of the skeptics here, but for most people, this is understood as business as usual for one of, if not the most corrupt agencies in the United States. This is an agency that has consistently and routinely been known to violate the law and to outright fabricate "evidence" to harrass and intimidate gun owners.

I believe the events I'm relaying are on the front end of this new push, but as the agents settle into a routine, I have a feeling these stories are going to start exploding in frequency.

What the ATF is doing is illegal, and if you give enough of a da*n about it, you need to raise hell to your congresscritter!

-SS :mad:
 
That information linked with a budget makes it a lot easier to see it more clearly.

Thank you.
 
So what is the ATF supposed to do? Sit back and watch the gangs in the border states smuggle weapons over the border? :uhoh:

SkySlash's posts assume an awful lot of illegal activity but they are assumptions at best. The problem is real and real scumbags are involved in it.

From the ATF link:

Reducing Violence on the Southwest Border – Project Gunrunner

The violence fueled by firearms trafficking is demonstrated in the crisis on our Southwest Border. Our firearms trafficking strategy complements our continued focus on the deployment of resources to specific localities where there is a high incidence of gang and gun violence. Through firearms trafficking interdiction efforts, ATF decreases the availability of illicit firearms
and recommends for prosecution those who illegally supply firearms to prohibited possessors.


Violent gang members are often involved in firearms trafficking, both for potential profit and in furtherance of drug trafficking and other crimes. Recent trends have shown an increase in the number of firearms recovered in Mexico, and these firearms fuel the growing violence along the border, including the brutal murders of hundreds of law enforcement officers and government officials.

ATF’s Southwest Border initiative, Project Gunrunner, is a focused subset of ATF’s broader firearms trafficking initiative, addressing U.S.-based firearms trafficking that is fueling the violence along the Southwest Border and nationwide. Over 90 percent of the crime guns used in Mexico originates from sources in the U.S. In the Southwest Border States, ATF’s primary role
is to stem the illegal trafficking of weapons across the border and to reduce the firearms driven violence now occurring on both sides of the international boundary. ATF is focused on shutting off the sources of firearms to violent offenders and criminal organizations, from both commercial dealers using “straw purchasers” and secondary markets such as gun shows. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and the Government of Mexico, ATF’s Project Gunrunner focuses on deploying resources on the Southwest Border to investigate the sources of firearms identified from trace data supplied by its Mexican counterparts. The trace data is derived from firearms recovered in the Mexican “market” areas.

Firearms tracing, in particular the expansion of the eTrace firearms tracing system, is a critical component of Project Gunrunner in Mexico. In 2008, ATF deployed eTrace technology to the nine U.S. consulates in Mexico. ATF provided extensive training to Mexican law enforcement personnel on firearms tracing and trafficking techniques. ATF and the government of Mexico
have discussed (and continue to discuss) decentralizing the firearms tracing process in order to deploy a Spanish-language eTrace to other Mexican law enforcement agencies.

In the past two years, ATF seized thousands of firearms headed to Mexico. Trends indicate that the firearms illegally crossing the U.S.-Mexico border are becoming more powerful. ATF analyzed firearms seizures in Mexico from FY 2005 to FY 2007 and identified the following weapons of choice most commonly used by drug traffickers: 9mm pistols; .38 Super pistols;
5.7mm pistols; .45-caliber pistols; AR-15 type rifles, and AK-47 type rifles.

Most of the firearms violence in Mexico is perpetrated by Drug Trafficking Organizations (DTOs.) DTOs are vying for control of drug trafficking routes to the U.S. and engaging in turf battles for disputed distribution territories. DTOs operating in Mexico rely on firearms from illicit suppliers to enforce and maintain their narcotics operations. Intelligence indicates these criminal organizations have tasked their money laundering, distribution and transportation infrastructures with reaching into the U.S. to acquire firearms and ammunition. These Mexican DTOs are among the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the U.S.

ATF currently has approximately 145 agents, 60 IOIs, and 12 forensic auditors assigned to Project Gunrunner, as part of a broad plan to increase strategic coverage of and disrupt the firearms trafficking corridors operating along the border. Additionally, ATF has dedicated four Intelligence Research Specialists (IRSs) and a special agent intelligence officer to intelligence
collection, analysis, and information sharing.
**********************************


The ATF is not the bad guy here. The border states and Mexico have had blurred borders and a blurred culture for many years. Maybe we
are destined to turn into another Mexico, we certainly import enough Mexicans to qualify.

When the US Mexican gangs start shooting up US LEO's like their counter-parts in Mexico do with hair-raising frequency, watch how fast a complete and total gun ban comes roaring down the pike but again, some people feel that is the ultimate goal. Controlled chaos and such...

All I do know is the ATF has their hands full.
 
I just skimmed it, but I believe at least a small portion of your information is incorrect.

Contacted by BATFE today!! *Update* - This one is a guy who knew his rights and told the ATF no, he wanted to talk to his lawyer. Upon advice from the lawyer, he told the ATF they'd need a warrant. He alleges the ATF got nasty upon that revelation. He also states he hasn't sold so the only way the ATF could get his info, again, is by violating FOPA and Tiahrt Amendment by stealing it off of a Form 4473.

The guy in the thread clearly stated that he purchased 2 handguns from the same dealer within a 5 day period, which prompted a Multiple Handgun Sales form. that is how the ATF got his info.
 
No, you're right Mike, we should just let the ATF continue to break the law and violate people's rights in order to pretend they are addressing this issue with your best interests in mind... :banghead:

The real issue with US Guns in Mexico is an entirely different problem altogether. The guns swamping Mexico are coming primarily from everywhere but the US, and the ones that are from the US primarily came from the US Military as a part of President Bush's failed "Plan Mexico" initiative in 2007.

Search for my thread on that if you want a really enlightening read.

-SS
 
No you're wrong about where the guns in Mexico are coming from. They are getting most of their pistols here and FA long guns elsewhere. I already mentioned that in this thread...

If you think for a minute that Mexican based gangs in the border states are not making a lot of money smuggling guns over the border, than you probably still believe in Santa.

I'm sorry to say, but in my humble opinion guys like you that love to spread the word about how dangerous law enforcement is and how they endanger your rights are as bad and as dangerous as the far leftists who coddle and excuse criminals.

Again, what is the ATF supposed to do when they have trace data from Mexico that show the guns are coming from the US.


Oh yeah, I forgot they are lying and there really are no Mexican gangs or drug cartels in Mexico. Its all a big conspiracy so ATF agents can look at 4473 forms... :eek:
 
ATF is permitted to check FFLs, their inventory, and the 4473 without a warrant (C.F.R. § 178.23(b))

Skyslash, your bold statement above point to the fact that only records material to a violation of the law may be seized. Do you have a cite for that? If that is exactly what the law says, it seems that it is within the law for the ATF to come inspect the FFL premises, check the 4473s, write down anything they feel is suspicious, and follow up on it. In this instance they did not seize any records. For that matter, bringing a copier along with them and making copies of 4473 doesn't appear to legally be seizing either.

I'm not happy about it, but you imply that they are breaking the law when it appears they may legally be allowed to do exactly what they are doing.

Also, I'm not sure your understanding of FOPA is correct.
18 U.S.C. 923 (j)

No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or disposition be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

No rule may require that 4473s be recorded at or transferred to a gov't facility, and you can't register guns.

That's basically how I read it, but I'm not a lawyer. Again, I'm not a fan of what the ATF is doing, but I'm not sure doing inspections and following up on what they feel are suspicious purchases goes against the law.
 
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Writs of Assistance.

'nuff said.

But I'll say more anyway: Cops harass the ones they know won't shoot back and the "Criminal" "Justice" "System" lets the real fiends go. Maybe if I was a cop I'd be afraid to go after the real machine-gun-toting scumbags, too. But I doubt I'd ever taser a Pastor. Or beat up an ambulance driver. Or shoot an 8-year old. Or beat and mace a bunch of middle-aged women. Or shoot two innocent people in a week span. Or, well, you get the picture.

And 2/3 of this garbage with the no-knock warrants (IE the type of stuff Ernst Roehm did) is instigated by 'tips' from 'informants' who are wacked out on drugs themselves.

Ever actually rely on the police or prosecutors for anything? I KNOW if you did, it did NOT get done.

BbBBbbBBBbbut, LEO's can be trusted.......right?

If you don't like it, don't be a cop. Because this BS ain't makin' me safer. In fact police brutality has skyrocketed right alongside crime. Seems counter intuitive. If it's the 'combat stress' of their jobs, we've failed big time as a society and citizens in stopping crime and diffusing situations that turn cops into thugs. And none of that will change until cops stand up and say enough and stop allowing their sleazy unions to cover for the dirty ones. Paid leave for shooting people? I'd shoot 4 people a year and work 4 days.

Statist gubment worshipers feel free to respond as though your buddy-buddy attitude towards them will somehow save you from their tactics when your time comes.
 
Again, what is the ATF supposed to do when they have trace data from Mexico that show the guns are coming from the US.
I have no control over what they do until it impinges upon my legal rights.

That's why I have a lawyer and know not to talk to any LEO about any substantive matter without him present.

They can ask all they want. They won't get ANYTHING but "I have nothing to say without my attorney present." Anything after that is entirely contingent upon my attorney's legal advice.

And that's the way it's going to be, PERIOD.

The BATFE doesn't have to like it.
You don't have to like it.

You just have to abide by it as required by law.
 
dilly, I don't know what your post has to do with the topic of the ATF knocking on doors, but the generic cop bashing will likely get the thread closed.
 
have no control over what they do until it impinges upon my legal rights.

That's why I have a lawyer and know not to talk to any LEO about any substantive matter without him present.

They can ask all they want. They won't get ANYTHING but "I have nothing to say without my attorney present." Anything after that is entirely contingent upon my attorney's legal advice.

And that's the way it's going to be, PERIOD.

The BATFE doesn't have to like it.
You don't have to like it.

You just have to abide by it as required by law.


And that has what to do with the topic at hand?
 
Statist gubment worshipers feel free to respond as though your buddy-buddy attitude towards them will somehow save you from their tactics when your time comes.

:rolleyes:

In the unlikely event you have JBT's on your six, contact the friendly folks at the ACLU. :neener:
 
waterhouse, that interpretation of FOPA was written by a renowned 2nd Amendment attorney, which is fully sourced at the link.

-SS
 
Quote:
They are getting most of their pistols here


SkySlash posted it. :p

http://www.usdoj.gov/jmd/2010justification/pdf/fy10-atf.pdf



ATF’s Southwest Border initiative, Project Gunrunner, is a focused subset of ATF’s broader firearms trafficking initiative, addressing U.S.-based firearms trafficking that is fueling the violence along the Southwest Border and nationwide. Over 90 percent of the crime guns used in Mexico originates from sources in the U.S. In the Southwest Border States, ATF’s primary role is to stem the illegal trafficking of weapons across the border and to reduce the firearms driven violence now occurring on both sides of the international boundary. ATF is focused on shutting off the sources of firearms to violent offenders and criminal organizations, from both commercial dealers
using “straw purchasers” and secondary markets such as gun shows. In partnership with other U.S. agencies and the Government of Mexico, ATF’s Project Gunrunner focuses on deploying resources on the Southwest Border to investigate the sources of firearms identified from trace data supplied by its Mexican counterparts. The trace data is derived from firearms recovered in the Mexican “market” areas.
 
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