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FFFFG from FFG?

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by GW, Sep 10, 2006.

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  1. GW

    GW Member

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    If I were to use a non-sparking mortar & pestle, Is there any reason I could or should not make FFFFG powder from my FFG to prime my flintlock?
     
  2. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    None I can think of! :)
     
  3. GW

    GW Member

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    What should it look like Could I make it too fine?
     
  4. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Do you have an excessive amount of FFg that you are tryin' to use up? Just curious why you don't just go get a lb. of Goex FFFFg, unless you just can't find any. That I understand.
    That's alot of work to grind and screen. You may wanna do it wet, I dunno about you but friction and BP bug me.
    http://i1.tinypic.com/2cyo800.jpg
     
  5. RON in PA

    RON in PA Member

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    Before I'd try grinding down some black powder, I'd try using the 2 Fg in the priming pan. It might work a lot better than you think. Grinding even if safe will not give you the uniformity that factory powder will.
     
  6. GW

    GW Member

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    FFFFG seems to be unavailable in San Jose
    So, I just had a thought that I might be able to make my own from coarser material
     
  7. sundance44s

    sundance44s Member

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    Sundance44s

    You`d be supprised how well 3f or 2f powder will work in your primming pan ...try it sometime .
     
  8. deadin

    deadin Member

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    IIRC, the problem with "grinding your own" is that you could lose some of the coating (graphite?) that keeps the indivdual grains from clumping together.
    Also, as said earlier, BP + friction = something I would rather not do.:D

    Dean
     
  9. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Must we go through this again? ELECTRICAL sparks, friction, etc., - it's HARD to set off blackpowder with anything except heat (flame). As in, really hard to do by accident.


    Steel/steel sparking will set it off, though. Use a marble or ceramic mortar/pestle. You'll be fine.
     
  10. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Read Back of Goex Can...

    Handling Precautions

    #2- Handle with care. Avoid impact, "friction", heat, sparks, and open flame.

    Ask Goex...

    I don't think anyone else mentioned Electrical Static Discharge or current.
    But seein' how you mentioned it. We had a cannon that shot cement filled beer cans well over 1000 yards. The ignitor was an electronic fuse attached to a DC truck battery....it set off 600 grains of Goex FFg with no problem.
     
  11. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Electronic fuses ("Solar fuses" etc.) are much different from electrical sparks - they use a resistance wire (nickel/chromium, usually) to create heat from the electricity; thus, the electricity doesn't set the charge off so much as the heat. :)
     
  12. deadin

    deadin Member

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    Third Rail, You are the only person in my experience of over 50 years of using black powder that has made the statements you make about what will and what won't set off BP.
    I will continue to follow what the manufacturers recommend. i.e.
    Now, if in YOUR experience, none of these things have happened, fine, maybe you're just lucky. I personally don't want the experience of proving you wrong.

    Dean
     
  13. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Didn't I say DC? We din't have a real long extention cord to go from home to the range.AC or DC, powder between current and ground will go Boom! i.e. powder kegs and a magneto ... you know, wind um up push the "T" handle down.
    Anyway try it if you must with a 1 lb. can of Goex in an old Chevy Impala and see ifin it goes Boom or not.
    I'm done this kinda stuff burns me out.
    All I know is what I know, just so you know I know...LoL!
    SG

    I still wouldn't grind up Goex Black Powder for all of the above sound reasons. FRICTION bein' a good one.
     
  14. sundance44s

    sundance44s Member

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    Sundance44s

    Wonder if we could get Myth Busters to do some experments with Black Powder and the subs . A friend of mine checked the tempture point of a flash from B/P and Pyrodex .. with just a few grains on a cookie sheet in his wifes oven ..( don`t think she was home at the time ) anyway the real black flashed at 350 degrees and the Pyrodex at 600 .. kinda what we figured would happen ..Pyrodex has always been a little harder to ignite . I would like to see some test done with electric sparks on both .
     
  15. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Sundance not up real close you wouldn't...LoL!

    In the above, I remembered it was a remote control Aircraft glowplug that was used to fire that cannon electrically. and not powered by a truck battery just one of those DC dry cell batteries. So in essance you can set BP off with a spark plug...now I din't say to try it.

    I've read reports where ESD won't set it off and where it has set it off. Put any pyro worth there salt can set powder, gas, or liquid off using electrical current as an ignitor. Just depends on how it is done. Whether on purpose or by accident..probly why accidents are called accidents...(spark, friction, static, or heat)
    Ya Know?
     
  16. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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  17. deadin

    deadin Member

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    OK, I'll give you static sparks(high voltage, nil amperage).However, we were discussing grinding (which causes friction, which can cause heat, and is a form of impact)) Got any experiments that refutes these?

    Dean
     
  18. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    Yeah, I still have all ten fingers; I grind BP all the time, I make it from scratch as well. Truly, if friction set it off as easily as people think it did, I'd be "Lefty" or "Stumpy".:)
     
  19. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Sorry don't have the Forum listing this was in just needed to read it once.
    Here's a couple Pics.
    2mwa3ah.gif
    2cy0j8w.gif

    I was a an explosives, (Powders and Squibs), Lab Tech for a spell and one thing I learned was to always expect the unexpected. And I'm still alive...so I won't tell a soul to do something I may have done and got away with, that's up to them to decide.
    I don't and won't grind BP...I'll make it and mix it wet a pound or less at a time break it up and sift it.
    I suppose grinding graphite coated BP as you do it is quite safe as you do have all your fingers. But I can't see doing that with BP, I'd throw fffg in the pan before I'd do that...I may condsider BP subs as being able to be ground up. Anyway Just my opinion others surely will vary.
    Main thing is you'all just be safe...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2006
  20. deadin

    deadin Member

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    Some people handle poisonous snakes, some people swim with stingrays, some people juggle chainsaws. They consider the risks acceptable or they wouldn't do it.

    I don't. And if I did, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else.

    Dean
     
  21. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Adding Water?

    I can see why you would want to mix it while it's wet, but it may increase the potency of the BP just as the process for making lift powder indicates. However, I'm not quite sure if meal powder is exactly the same as BP either, since meal powder hasn't undergone the "homogenization" type process that commercial powder undergoes. But according to the following statement, it does seem plausable:

    See "lifting powder": http://www.unitednuclear.com/bp.htm
     
  22. gmatov

    gmatov member

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    I shouldn't get into this, but what the hell.

    First, them of you that take as gospel the "Impact" thing, take just a few nice big grains and set them on your anvil or your vise and smack them with a hammer. See if you have set them off. Probably not.

    Second, go to the page third rail linked to. Read the guy's stuff. 50,000 volts of static won't do it.

    Third, I don't know what the pic that Smoke posted means. I see a glow to the right of the "electrode", whatever that is. Is that a hot hunk of iron?

    Fourth, a "glow plug" is not a "spark plug". A glow plug is a short circuit, a resistance metal that is designed to get hot. Model aircraft engines are actually diesels running on gasoline or alcohol or whatever. Same with a diesel engine, the VWs and the like before the TDIs came out. All had "pre-chambers" that needed heating, and that was with resistance heat, ie, glow plugs.

    Fifth, "Push the plunger down and "BOOM". That was not igniting the main charge, that was setting off the blasting cap, once fulminate of mercury, what they are nor, I don't know. With BP, it is a flash of fire, so BP goes BOOM. With dynamite or TNT, it is simply a BOOM, so the rest of the charge also goes BOOM, sympathetic detonation.

    A simple hand grenade works the same way. A couple ounces of HE, a blasting cap, a primer fired by a striker, spring operated, that snaps the cap when the spoon is let go. A powder train that is timed for about 7 seconds to let you throw and duck. Then the blasting cap detonates, then the explosive charge.

    As far as the OP asking about 4F fines, why don't you just pour some of your BP through a fine mesh sieve?

    One, none of the granulations are ALL 1f, 2,f, 3f, they also have fines in them, strain the fine stuff out, use that for your priming powder, although I have read that a lot of long rifle shooters consider 3f to be better priming powder than 4f is.

    Cheers,

    George
     
  23. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    Articap, I meant making BP from scratch, it would be wet then dried and sifted. I think I said I wouldn't wet Goex ffg. Sifting would be cool but not grinding it.(Goex)

    And George whatever my friend, I have set BP off with ESD and current, so whatever you think or want to do with your BP is fine by me. Only I won't tell anyone else that what I do is what they should do... and that's was the only reason I continued this post again as long as I have.
    Now I can say I'm done...it was fun as usual...

    ...and for those who can't buy the powder they need here you go...
    Recipe is from a friend.

    †Disclaimer:Make black powder entirely at your own risk, I assume no responsibility for your actions, or the consequences of your actions. It's as safe as you are while making it!

    •Initial setup supplies•
    *1: a 3lb Rock tumbler ( ball mill ) www.harborfreight.com -approx.$25
    *2: Digital scale to .1g accuracy www.digiweighusa.com - approx.$20
    *3: 100 .457 or larger lead balls
    *4: Good airtight containers to mix/store
    *5: Stainless kitchen seives or screens to approx. grain size
    ••Chemicals-
    @ www.firefox-fx.com( cheapest I've found, great service!, bulk discounts)
    *1: Potassium nitrate(KNO3)- 10 lbs for $34.50, enough for 13.5 lbs of BP
    *2: Charcoal,(air float)- $3.75/lb
    *3: Sulfur- $2.50/lb
    *4: Dextrin-$2.80/lb
    •Industry Standard BP Formula= 75% KNO3 15% Charcoal 10% Sulfur
    * Many people make there own charcoal from Willow, it's considered to be the best for fast BP. Airfloat worked fine for me!

    •••Directions-( Best to do all of this outside of course!) Use some common sense and it will be a safe project.
    1- Set up the ball mill with a 50-100' cord, away from people and buildings, on a solid table or ground. Remotely turn the ball mill on/off. Just an extra safety measure! - Put the 100 lead balls into the barrel of the tumbler.
    2- For a 200g batch,(little under 1/2 lb) weigh 150g KNO3, 30g Charcoal, 20g Sulfur. Pour into tumbler barrel and place back into tumbler.
    3- Mill for at least 3 hrs. Remotely shut tumbler off.
    4- Pour tumbler contents through screen over newspaper, to seperate meal powder from lead balls.
    5-Once you have the desired amount of meal, put it into large sealable container ( lock&lock from Wal-mart is great, they have a silicone seal and snap lids). Add an additional 8-10% Dextrin( 200g meal gets about 20 g dextrin)
    6- Shake to mix then add small amount of water( spray bottle works best). Shake again. You want the powder to clump but not be too wet. You can always add more water and it's helpful to have some extra dry meal set aside incase you add too much water.
    7- Now take the "dough" and place it in the seive to be granulated. Use your hands or a spoon to force it through, onto a newspaper. (This is called "ricing" the powder. Commercial powder is hydraulically pressed into bricks, dried, crushed, seived and graphite coated. Pressing is easy if you have the press and can make the proper container to do this.)
    8- Let dry in sun, 2-4 hrs.
    9- Store in Lock&Lock container or empty BP or Pyrodex containers.
    •Initially while not a big money saver, it's fun, easy and will save money in the long run!
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2006
  24. Third_Rail

    Third_Rail Member

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    http://discountpyro.com/ is also really good for chemicals. :)


    Especially if you love to use blackpowder, even when other things work better. :D
     
  25. Smokin_Gun

    Smokin_Gun Member

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    When I find something that shoots more accurate and consistant groups the "Holy Black" I'll let you know. (with my Lube Pills and no fouling binding up my Revs):D

    Thanks for the site!
     
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