FFFg powder compare: Goex, Swiss, Kik and Schuetzen

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I don't think Don is being rude at all. I agree with him that the conclusions Blacknet has come up with don't seem correct to me either.

Like which powder has more graphite on it. he seems to be judging that in the color of the finished powder. ?? Graphite is a gray silvery substance. Not Black. By looks alone it would be the Swiss that has the most graphite on it. I do know that none of will know for sure unless someone from the powder companys posts and says for sure what they all use.
I am pretty sure all powders have some on them to help stop them from drawing moisture and clumping together.

I think a powder gets it's color from the charcoal it was made with. Not so much the type of wood but the process in which it was made. Complete charred being very black and lighter or even reddish colored using under charred wood.
The later would make a powder more likely to absorb moisture and for sure wood need the graphite coating.

The next thing is which powder is most likely to foul the barrel.
Most people that use black powder would have no real way to judge that since they use a bunch of lube, wax or grease when they shoot.

I shoot all lead ball guns free of lube. Rifle or revolvers. I use water or spit on the patch to load the rifle. Have since the late 60's. No lube, wax's wads or such in the chamber or over the ball.

I have found the powders that leave the driest residue are the least likely to foul the barrels. The drier the better. I have tried Goex, Graf and sons and swiss. I found the Swiss to foul the barrels well before the other two. Then Graf and Sons and the least being Goex. The last two being close.
I shot 278 rounds without cleaning or disassembly through my 1851 colt using Goex powder and still the barrel had not fouled.

When it comes right down to it, anything posted about how a brand of powder is made or what it is made from would be hearsay or a guess not fact, unless the manufacture themselves posted it.


If you really want to learn about gunpowder then you should read something directly fron the manufacture. Such as this one. I posted this quite awhile ago but here it is again. It was the handbook that all their workers were given. (I think It is now availible on Google Books for download.)

Manufacture and Proof of Gunpowder by Captian smith, Royal Aryillery
 
For what it's worth, I've found that in my BP revolvers and a handful of .45 colt cartridge loads, Swiss, Schuetzen, and Goex are all pretty much equal. Same amount of fouling, fairly consistent groups. Never tried Kik. I tend to order from Graf's, and the one thing I can say is that I've found Schuetzen to generally be the most available and the cheapest per pound when I can find stuff on sale.

I find Blacknet's conclusions to be interesting, but not definitive. I suspect that the differences in black powder, at least for pistol shooting, probably do not matter a great deal provided that the shooter does his/her homework in developing their own load. In terms of long range rifle shooting out to 1,000 yards, I have absolutely no idea. Might be interesting to see a long range report done with one of those Gibbs rifles!
 
gp41080hercules.jpg


as for the conclusion thing I did already comment on that on page 1, also provided some proof as well
 
I will do an honest eval, like I said from the start this is just one small part of the project. As for 'shooting' I am designing a rig to yield me consistency between shots from reloading and what not, sand bag it very good and that will take much/most of the human error. I was thinking more like 50 shots per powder with that setup should yield a good spread graph.
 
The problem with the leadsleds and such contraptions, is you can not be sure if any inaccuracy is coming from the shooting aid, or the load combination. A good set of benchrest crossticks in combination with bench bags, is usually what folks use to test for loads. After all there are precious few shooting competitions that let you use and mechanically aids.
Looking forward to your shooting report.
 
I was thinking sandbags, 4x4's and bondo to be honest. Maybe some pvp pipe as well. Bondo to mold the rifle form and ensure it is always a perfect fit every time.
 
How on earth in a contraption like that would you even be sure where the sights were pointing, if and when the thing come to rest in the same spot.
And all that of course may go to pot when the wrist of the buttstock cracks. Never mind the trigger squezze.
Anyway here's a thread you might find interesting, I hope it opens for you , the board it's from has implemented a subscription policy, and I'm not sure if your not registered if you can access all the threads, but here goes anyway.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/279463/
 
I am registered there. I recently had a HUGE post deleted because we dived into the manufacturing aspect, had some very good work put into that to.

Kik is not made in the same plant as swiss or schuetzen. Kik is made by KIK Kamnik d.d. - also in bankruptcy proceedings as of 2009/2010.
 
Here check this out,

See the way my rifle sits on the sandbag?

149249_4738304057437_815623637_n.jpg


The bonbo would mold to the contour of the rifle on the stock, that would ensure a perfect fit match up. the 4x4 framing would go around the sandbag to retard movement. sandbag under the rear and just need to brace behind the butplate and fire. recoil would still go into the shoulder like normal but alignment would be spot on.

This range test was to work on a few areas, one being the sights. As for accuracy with the way she is sitting right now this is the results. I had 4 different aim points on this target, 30-40 yards.
485158_4738159133814_192957314_n.jpg
 
As for fouling goes I should be able to get shots of the pan, cleaning patches and inside the barrel, after firing.

This is 3 dozen shots, not one cleaning the entire time other than what the patch provided.
29367_4034734308633_74937841_n.jpg
 
You should be shooting that target at 100 yds and getting the results that you
show on your 35-40 yd targets.

100 yds, open sights, Flintlock sand bag rest
Untitled3.jpg
 
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From the looks of all the fuzz around your pan you are using about 6 times to much priming powder. Also hard to tell from you picture, but it looks like your touch hole is shot out. That will make a huge difference in accuracy.
In all sincerity that target you posted is sort of meaningless to the rest of the world, there's no way of knowing which shot was first and which was last.
I would also suggest that with groups that large at that close of range besides the priming powder and the enlarged touch hole, you have a problem with either the ball being to small or the patch to thin or both. Also the lube on the patch can make a huge difference just like with cartridge guns. You also may not be using a powder charge that the rifle likes.
Yes as to the traditional muzzleloading forum, I haven't posted much there for several years, since one of the original "owners" of the sight got all over a bunch of us old buckskinners about how immoral we were posting about shooting round balls past 50 yds...
But you need to get away from the Bill Knight teachings/preachings on KIK. I don't think he ever shot any, or he would of known it is and always has been one of the cleaner burning powders, and he either does not know or has not provided the full story on Goex importing the stuff, and his statement about nobody else can bring it in, has pretty much proved wrong over the 10 years since he penned those lines.
Just so you know, there is another container of KIK coming inbound,expected arrival shortly.
 
Blacknet, best of luck to you. I'm sure you'll get things figured out.
But in that you say 4 aiming points on the target is all well and good, but those really need to be marked and groups from each indicated so that others can see what you think you see?
Fired many hundreds of rounds in competition with my ol flintgun Klatch, but never ever after a days shooting saw that much filth on the gun. The carbon build up in your pan indicates way to much powder in open burn. The amount of white residue over your frizzen is another indicator of entirely to much priming powder.
Your backlash against the other target about only the 3rd time you've fired the gun is telling. There are many folks here and elsewhere that would/could be of good help to you in getting that rifle to working like it should, but you're going to have to get rid of that chip on your shoulder.
 
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Whether or not others could shoot better is a mute point in your comparison test.
You need a baseline for accuracy,velocity, fouling etc to start from. Otherwise any results you might come to at the end of your tests may be tilted to far one way or the other.
 
My rifle was over 30 yrs old and been shot thousands of times when I shot that
Target in 2006. I have shot several "50"'s in competition through the years.
Once hit 10 penny's in a row at 50 yds. But my ability to shoot has nothing to
Do with test. And in all my 50 yrs of shooting, I have never, never seen a lock
And pan as dirty as yours. I have shot in many 3-day shoots. Something is
Wrong with the way you are loading. Real wrong. Good luck to you.
 
So, apparently my post was deleted? All I think I asked was who the two other posters(who dominated the whole thread) were working for. I think that is a legitimate question.
 
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