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FFFg powder compare: Goex, Swiss, Kik and Schuetzen

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by BlackNet, Apr 23, 2013.

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  1. colonelhogan44

    colonelhogan44 Member

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    I've used Kick and Goex. Both are good. Use what you like and gives good results in your rifle. I've found the kik to be a tad bit cleaner.
     
  2. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    Found this one interesting.
     
  3. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    If all I had to choose from was Schuetzen, Goex, and Swiss, I'ld go with the Schuetzen first. They did change the formula on Schuetzen a couple of years ago and they claim to have boosted it's performance by 8-10%. But by that time I had found that KIK was a perfect replacement for Goex Express and Cartridge, and decided to stick with it as it's way cleaner than any other black I had ever shot until the Eynsford came out. If I can squeeze the across the board accuracy from Eynsford that I get from KIK I may go with it, but at this time KIK is my main match powder.
    But everybody has to try stuff on their own and see what they like the best.
     
  4. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    You have any info on the bankruptcy that KIK powder company was going through recently?
     
  5. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    No nothing other than it must be like most bankruptcy's the company tries to keep on going without shutting down if possible.
    Folks that have been on the anti KIK mode for what ever reason keep bringing that up, and in the meantime a couple more containers of 10Klbs of powder come in.... Another one is on its way. So even if the company did shut down, there's enough of that powder available to last a long time.What Western Powders and Powder Inc have going with that deal I have no clue, and as long as it keeps coming I'm happy , when it quits I'll find something else.
    Heck I found out today that there's at least one place that still has cases of Goex Cartridge in stock, and it was discontinued 3 years ago, and I don't believe they ran any of that since 05 from the plant...
     
  6. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    Well I have been looking into those areas past few days. I can find loads of good stuff from Swiss and Schuetzen easily. also Schuetzen has a forum and that is the quote I posted above, from the administrator himself.

    What I found so far on KIK was they went in 2008, the courts threw it out and then in 2009 they courts put them back in, dragged on to 2012 and that was the last I could find.

    KIK 2005-2009 financial report

    Now I am no accountant by no means and don't claim to be. It does look like they hit a very nasty slump pre-2007 and seem to be picking up in some areas. Less in equipment, assets, employee expenses, material expenses. Higher in profit margins and sales revenue, so appears to have undergone a serious shake up, some restructuring and new sales. Seems there may be some potential and if handled good they may recover.
     
  7. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    More info on the powders.

    Swiss and Schuetzen is very DENSE while Kik and Goex are less dense. This is apparent from the photo's, this would also yield a good indicator as to which TYPE of powder would be 'better' depending on application and loading style.

    source: https://www.schuetzenpowder.com/forum/index.php?topic=89.5;wap2



    also
    - the Schuetzen black powder was designed for the US market by a joint team of Germans and the Swiss.

    the Kik container I have was made in 2010 (lot #3910)
    the Schuetzen container I have was made in Jan 2012
    the Swiss containers I have they are so detailed on the date/lot number they actually list the day of the year so 2005/2011 and 2012.

    Swiss is changing the structure of the granulates and this summer we will see the new setup. They are rounded and look like shot also highly more uniform
     
  8. Pete D.

    Pete D. Member

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    Lots of nit picking going on here.
    As to the testing/comparison.....a similar test was done some years ago by Sherman Bell in his "Finding Out for Myself" series in the Double Gun and Single Shot Journal.
    The one detail that I remember was that Swiss powder was the densest of the selected powders, consistently yielding 10%+ heavier charges than the other powders for the same volume.
    If I can find that old volume of the DGJ, I will post the relevant info.
    Pete
     
  9. mykeal

    mykeal Member

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    Sigh.

    No, it's not.

    Density is a physical property, mass per unit volume, which is only PARTIALLY a function of the size and shape of the individual particles; the density of the particles themselves and settling of the particles into their optimum packing ratio both matter as well.

    Please. Measure some charges, weigh them and calculate the density. I'd do it myself but I don't have the powder samples - you do. You may well be right about the relative densities of the various brands, but credibility comes from hard data, not opinions about photographs.

    Thank you. That would be very much appreciated.
     
  10. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    Wandering off in the weeds looking for the dirty little secrets about this or that companies finances is a waste of time when it comes to a real powder comparison, but if that's what flips your skirts up have at it. Keep in mind no matter what the muck rakers say about KIK, so far none of it seems to amount to a hill of beans when it comes to the availability of the powder, nor does it have any affect on just how well the stuff shoots. And it sure doesn't change the fact you can get almost 2 cases of it for the price of 1 Swiss. So think about that for a half second, twice as much shooting for the same money.....
    Density of a powder doesn't much matter either, it's how the powder burns that counts. While some lots of Swiss are much denser in that a given volume of powder will weigh x amount, it matters little if it won't shoot any better than a different powder, or fouls out in a matter of a few shots. Density can be misleading the Olde Eynsford weighs less than all the other brands of powder per volume, yet it so far has equaled or exceeded the velocity of the other powders when loaded on a volume basis....
    Be more interested in seeing the targets you shoot with each powder at the end of the day.
     
  11. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    Wouldn't excessive density cause less complete combustion in the time frame of black powder shooting? I am thinking in terms of the burning rate of hardwoods vs softwoods as an example. I know that the physics change in an enclosed space but I would think that the combustion rate would still be impacted.
     
  12. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    By controlling the density of the powder (pressing), which all commercial manufactures does, it yields some control over performance consistency.

    Less dense powders burns faster so there is the possibility of over pressing :)

    Moisture retention is reduced in the more dense powders, however some moisture does indeed make black power burn FASTER.

    The denser powders is less likely to crumble in shipment, storage, handling and what not. Crumbling adversely affects performance.

    Harder powders require a dry and hard granulation process and is more dangerous than wet.

    In terms of performance in high vs low density for silver maple vs aspen:

    muzzle velocity shows 5-9%.
    flight time shows 8-7%.
    peak pressure variation 30-44%.

    Sasse's research shows flame spread depends on density, surface area and free volume.
    White and Horst research shows grain position and movement was important.

    *) sources

    Ian von Maltitz, Black Powder Manufacturing, Testing & Optimizing, 2003.

    R.A. Sasse, Characterization of Maple Charcoal Used to Make Black Powder, US Army Research and Development Center, Ballistic Research Laboratory, Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, (1983).

    K. J. White and A.W. Horst, Black Powder Flamespreading Characteristics, 7th International Pyrotechnics Seminar.

    You are indeed correct. However, Goex and KIK uses imperial granulation sizes (I know goex does and it is strong speculation on KIK since Goex has helped them revamp their setup and process), Swiss and Schuetzen uses METRIC granulation sizes. Metric granulation tends to run slightly on the LARGER size thus more dense. As for all this coming from photo's, no it all did not come from photo's much of what I posted is coming from various sources including the powder company itself and various books that I posted earlier.

    Now for this test I did exactly as mykeal ask which is a very good idea and I came up with the following setup:
    [​IMG]

    I set the grain size to 20 on the gauge and I measured each using the spout cap (this is another beef I have with different powders Swiss and Goex has the same thread pattern and size while KIK and Schuetzen are different, so you would need THREE powder can caps instead of the ONE that I have) I chose this volumetric because the plunger locks into place and it is clear and it never changed during the test.

    I then removed excess by the swing action of the top over the container to reclaim the excess powder. On the Schuetzen and KIK there was much much extra than with Swiss and Goex (due to spout cap thread size/pattern)

    I then set the scales to zero and used my powder funnel on top of the scales to pour the sample in then removed the funnel.

    In the interest of fairness I did all samples TWO times.

    Swiss: 20 grains
    Schuetzen:20 grains
    Goex: 18 grains
    KIK 16, 18 and 18 grains (I may have botched the first run this is why I did it THREE times)

    So there we have it. Same volumetric meter, same scales all 4 powders of FFFg as pictured above and a 10% spread of density with Swiss and Schuetzen being higher. Oh and +/- 0.1 gain accuracy, sorry this is the most accurate scale that I have.

    [​IMG]

    One more thing, when I was on the phone with Goex this week I was told on grain size of Olde Eynsford that yes indeed they were LARGER grains because that is what shooters wanted and so they made it somewhat comparable to that of Swiss but did refuse to say what is the upper and lower limit of the grain sizes. This does make me wonder if they changed Olde Eynsford to be more dense as that of Swiss and Schuetzen.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  13. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    Oh and for the record kwhi43@kc.rr.com and Don McDowell, my '1 grain' spout actually is throwing 6 grains. I cut it down and now it is 2 grains so yes I was using to much powder in the pan.
     
  14. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    2 grs is probably going to be to much, but that you'll have to experiment with.
     
  15. kwhi43@kc.rr.com

    kwhi43@kc.rr.com Member

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    Yes, I use about 1 grain.

    anigif-5.jpg

    This is what 50 yd targets should look like.
    IMG_filtered.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  16. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    Once dialed in and broken in sure. Testing at the range today yielded less than 1 1/2 grains provided many pan only ignitions due to the breech plug layout. so 1 1/2 grains is ideal. Even with .75 grain I was able to see residue in those areas.

    So tell me how many grains of powder is in this photo?
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    I also measured the '3 grain' spout and the '1 grain' spout. the '3 grain' measured 8 grains, the '1 grain' measured 6 grains. So humor me, put in the pan how much you use then put it on a scale and tell me the weight.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  17. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    Couldn't tell you how many grains but the top photo looks to be about twice what a a good flint gun would need for good ignition.
    When you bring the gun up to fire tip it to the right so the powder is on the outside of the pan and will "flash" into the touch hole.
     
  18. Steel Horse Rider

    Steel Horse Rider Member

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    I don't know how many grains it is in the picture but it appears to be more than I use in my Pedersoli Hawken flinter. I dribble a bit over the flash hole and then try not to fill the remaining groove level.
     
  19. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    Both photo's is the same amount of powder. The photo is showing about 1 1/2 grains of powder. Also the second photo is a 1:1 macro shot, the ruler is in 1/32" increments.

    This is also Null-B Swiss powder, which is 0.25mm to 0.19mm and the weight measured was with this powder, using 4F yielded less weight, about 1 grain less. I am not sure how many here has used it before either.

    This is FFFg on the left, Null-B in the middle and FFFFg on the right. HUGE difference going on there.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. kwhi43@kc.rr.com

    kwhi43@kc.rr.com Member

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    Here is what one grain of powder in the pan looks like. Anymore to me would
    Be a waste of powder and be over kill.

    AfterSizing5_filtered.jpg

    Untitled116-1.jpg
     
  21. Don McDowell

    Don McDowell Member

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    Yes Jim Kirkland is the owner/importer of Swiss and Schuetzen. It's speaks quite highly of the sort of person he is that he allows the discussion of other powders on his site.I have been somewhat mystified why in 5 years that site hasn't really taken off, as when Goex had their forum it was a busy place...
    Did you happen to read the 3 KIK threads John Boy posted there on the KIK comparisons?
     
  22. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Geez folks. Too much angst
     
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