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FFL dealer tried to OTC to me!

Discussion in 'Legal' started by PryItFromMyColdDeadHands, Jan 8, 2009.

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  1. PryItFromMyColdDeadHands

    PryItFromMyColdDeadHands Member

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    I recently ordered two AR-15 lowers and when they came in the FFL dealer tried to just hand them to me.....I got to the counter and the owner said "well your parts arrived this morning, there will not be a charge since they didn't stay over night."
    I promptly corrected the owner and informed them to give me the paperwork and let me fill it out. They were shocked and had no idea at all that the lowers were FFL items that needed to be logged in the book. i had to show them where the Serial numbers were and explain just what the lower was.

    has anyone else ever had this happen to them and was I right by not just taking them?
     
  2. Joe7cri

    Joe7cri Member

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    I think you were, you should always CYA.
     
  3. 71Commander

    71Commander Member

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  4. PryItFromMyColdDeadHands

    PryItFromMyColdDeadHands Member

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    over the counter
     
  5. kurtmax

    kurtmax Member

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    TBH I would have just taken them.

    There's nothing really illegal doing so, it's all the dealer's problem. It'd save me the hassle of the not-so-'instant' nics check...
     
  6. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    My gut tells me that even if you may beat the rap, you'll not likely beat the ride on this sort of thing.

    It's always best to show due diligence in following the law.
     
  7. IdahoLT1

    IdahoLT1 Member

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    if you did let them slip and the feds caught on(chances are goo they would eventually), your lower probably would have been consficated because it is evidence in a federal crime.

    Ive had bank tellers accidently deposit money that wasnt mine into my account(~$11k once). Although the little devil on my left shoulder told me to withdrawal the money and close the account, the angel on my right said they will eventually catch on and it will come back to bite me in the keister by either having to pay it back and/or serve.face jail time. The next day, i walked in and notified the teller of the error.
     
  8. taprackbang

    taprackbang member

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    "'OTC"
    should be that easy, but....
     
  9. Mike2

    Mike2 Member

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    When in doubt always follow the rules, if you don't like the rules, work as hard as you can to have them changed. One person making enough noise can impart change, but it takes significant effort.
     
  10. PryItFromMyColdDeadHands

    PryItFromMyColdDeadHands Member

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    i asked my loan officer at my bank a hypothetical question about a bank error in my favor type of situation and HE told me that my banks policy was that if the money got spent before it was taken back out that it was just basically a x-mas present! ....of course all banks differ though...mine is not a large CORP.
     
  11. willmartin

    willmartin member

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    Think Prilosec OTC.
     
  12. subknave

    subknave Member

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    Apparently they weren't very knowledgable and you did the right thing in educating them on the correct procedures.
     
  13. Yoda

    Yoda Member

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    It happened to me...

    A few years ago, a new FFL confided in me that he would be willing to sell me some stuff "off the books," from his "personal collection." I was standing at his store counter at the time. I advised him that I didn't think he had that option, and even if he did, it probably wasn't a very smart way to do business. Guess what? He's not in business any more. He didn't last long.

    - - - Yoda
     
  14. Duke of Doubt

    Duke of Doubt member

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    I've discovered once or twice after the fact that guns I purchased in good faith as antiques ... weren't. In one case the dealer covered his butt by stating up front it was his private possession and not in inventory. Whatever. Still, the onus is on the FFL holder, not the buyer. Good point though on them potentially being held as evidence ... perhaps after you've attached all kinds of parts to them.

    As to banks, I don't think if they put a million into your account and you absconded to Jamaica that they'd call it a Christmas present. We had a case around here years ago where a lot of money was deposited in error into a guy's account. He spent it long before it was discovered. Turns out he had non-steady but substantial income from many sources (he was a contractor) and a spendthrift spouse, so he never had much idea what was going into and out of his account. The lawyers for the bank (a couple of real jerks) pushed very hard for prison time. To me, that was unfair. Pay it back, sure, but over time, as it was the bank's error. I don't recall whether the poor fool ended up getting time or not.
     
  15. TimRB

    TimRB Member

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    You may well have saved your dealer's license. I hope he takes this as a wake-up call and goes through his records to make certain there weren't other instances where he received lowers but didn't put them in his bound book.

    Someone, somewhere, has a bound book showing that those lowers were shipped to your dealer. If he actually received them but they don't show up in his bound book, he is in real trouble.

    Tim
     
  16. PryItFromMyColdDeadHands

    PryItFromMyColdDeadHands Member

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    yeah they didn't even know what an AR-15 Was !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    They are older ppl....which is no excuse but my god!

    BATF might need to issue a test or something before they hand those licenses out! LOL j/k
     
  17. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    You probably could have paid cash for them and walked out the door with no paperwork following the receivers.

    On the other hand, the dealer sounds like a decent sort. Being honest and correcting the error will probably help you out in the long run because the shop you patronize hasn't been shut down or prosecuted out of existance by the BATFE.
     
  18. 7.62X25mm

    7.62X25mm member

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    Yeah, right --

    Call me skeptical here, but an FFL needs to transfer firearms from a distributor to his books just like he needs to transfer the guns from his books to a retail sale.

    You don't get your FFL out of the bottom of a box of Cracker Jacks.

    And an accounting error at the bank is not a "freebie" either.
     
  19. conserv1

    conserv1 Member

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    I fail to see the "real" question here.
    The OP asked "if he did the right thing"..
    He obeyed the law.
    Some people are honest, some are not..
    Some obey the law, some don't..
    Personally I think he did the right thing.
    To pay cash and walk out with them knowing the store owner would probably get shafted in the end shows little character in my opinion.
     
  20. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Character is doing the right thing when nobody's looking.


    Furthermore, if the FFL got audited by the BATFE, there's a real good chance the OP would have to turn in these two lowers and he'd be out them ... he might not go to jail (however receiving them across state lines is a crime so he probably would) but at the least he'd be out his lowers ... and possibly have his dog shot, kitten stomped or house burned down in the process.

    Jeebus kurtmax, I hope you're not practicing law anywhere. :uhoh:

    ACCEPTING SHIPMENT across state lines of a firearm without going through an FFL is a FELONY. Taking the "parts" and going home would be "Accepting shipment across state lines". The only reason he wouldn't actually do time is if F-Troop promised to go light on him for his testimony against the FFL (who would probably spend the rest of his life in jail and lose everything).


    Don't F with F-Troop, they'll F you up.
     
  21. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    You did the right thing by letting your dealer know. Some dealers have never sold an AR15 in their lives. Without some basic knowledge it is easy to understand not knowing that the funny shaped piece of aluminum is a "firearm".
    An interesting point. Typically the ATF checks that all guns in the bound book that are logged out have a matching 4473 to show where they went, and that all guns in the bound book that are not logged out are on the premises.

    If a dealer did not log in a lower because he thought it was a part (i.e. he treated it like a barrel or magazine), and then he handed the lower to a customer, the likelihood of getting caught for this mistake is fairly small.

    It isn't like the ATF can walk in, look at my books, and then say "we are going to start calling dealers at random to see if anyone sent you something that you didn't log in." Really the only way this would come up is on a firearms trace.
     
  22. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Except that the manufacturers bound book shows these two receivers being shipped to this FFL, if they follow up that transaction, then the FFL has to explain why they were never entered into his bound book.

    I believe the ATF regularly audits both dealers and manufacturers, so its not unreasonable to expect this error to be caught.

    At any rate, even if it is slim, its not worth the risk to the OP or the FFL.
     
  23. TimRB

    TimRB Member

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    'It isn't like the ATF can walk in, look at my books, and then say "we are going to start calling dealers at random to see if anyone sent you something that you didn't log in."'

    True. It would take an investigation of the *shipping* dealer to turn this up. But it could happen. In any event, it's not a legal transfer, and I doubt that the receiving dealer saying "I didn't know it was a firearm" would help much. In that case I think he could consider himself lucky if he only lost his license.

    Tim
     
  24. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Better to be honest. That allows for self-respect. Anybody who would have taken those lowers and left isn't worth zilch/zip/nada as a person. Sorry trash. Would probably do Evil Things with chickens.
     
  25. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Thanks Art, hardest I've laughed in at least a week.
     
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