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FFL is trying to steal my father in laws pistol

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by cameroneod, Jul 26, 2011.

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  1. cameroneod

    cameroneod Member

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    Here is the situation as I know it.

    My father in law recently retired from the Alaska Railroad. He is in the process of moving all of his possessions to his brothers home in Montana where they will sit until he finds a place to live. He is not moving to Montana, he's just using it as a staging area.

    He mailed his pistol to an FFL dealer in Montana through an FFL in Anchorage, but when he tried to pick up his pistol the dealer told him he could only release it to him if he is a Montana resident.

    Now the dealer is telling him that if he doesn't figure it out within thirty days, he is keeping the pistol.

    :fire::fire::fire:
     
  2. jelayne

    jelayne Member

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    Guess he better get his drivers license updated to Montana really quick.
     
  3. KodiakBeer

    KodiakBeer member

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    Did he fail the NICS check?
     
  4. jelayne

    jelayne Member

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    What about getting it returned to sender?
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Unfortunately, the dealer is at least partially right. No FFL dealer can ever transfer a handgun to a person who is NOT a resident of that state.

    Your FIL should really, really have established what he was doing before sending that gun to a dealer.

    The best thing to do would probably be for him to sell the gun to his brother. The dealer could legally transfer it to the brother as he's a MT resident.

    Then, once your FIL knows what state he's living in, the brother can send, or bring in person, that gun to a dealer in your FIL's new home state and transfer it to him there.

    (He could have shipped it to HIMSELF in care of his brother which would have saved SOOOOooo much hassle, but most folks don't know that that is legal.)
     
  6. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    He isn't going to be a MT resident, so that won't work.

    You don't need a driver's license to establish residency.
     
  7. cameroneod

    cameroneod Member

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    His impression is that the dealer is trying to make it as difficult as possible for him so that he can keep the gun after 30 days. The dealer told him that he wouldn't let his brother take possession and that he had to have a license from the state to pick it up. This is further complicated by the fact that my father in laws CDL is in Alaska, and its not exactly easy to swap that over, especially when he's not going to be living in the state.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  8. ZeroJunk

    ZeroJunk Member

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    Why not just transfer it to the brother?
     
  9. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

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    I would pay for it to be shipped back to Alaska to your original dealer. If he refuses to do so, I would contact the Sheriff of the County and see if he would pay the dealer a freindly visit. If this fails, it would be time to press charges for theft.

    1. You can prove the property is legally yours.
    2. You can prove that you sent it to the dealer with the honest intention of conducting a legal transfer.
    3. You can prove that the dealer intended to deprive you of goods/ property belonging to you. This is indicated by his refusal to ship the item back to the sender.
     
  10. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    I don't believe it's legal for the dealer to simply keep the pistol. It wasn't transfered to the FFL via sale, just held in his possession for transfer. If the transfer isn't made, isn't the FFL legally obligated to return the firearm to it's point of origin?

    He shouldn't simply be allowed to keep it and seel it as stock or transfer it to his personal collection.
     
  11. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    I'd have my brother go pick it up this time, and in the future I would not unnecessarily involve FFLs in my move.
     
  12. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Maybe you should read Federal law first:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html

    18 USC 922 (b)(3):

    Cameroneod, can you explain to us how you expect the Montana dealer to deliver the pistol to your father-in-law who is not a Montana resident without violating Federal law?
     
  13. cameroneod

    cameroneod Member

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    The dealer told him specifically that he would not let his brother pick up the pistol because he wasnt on the paperwork. Also, Im not sure what shipping it back to AK would accomplish as he's not sure when he'll be back.

    He's contacted the County Sheriff and she is supposed to get back with him today. This has got to be seriously aggravating for him considering he was just trying to comply with, what he thought was, the law.
     
  14. cameroneod

    cameroneod Member

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    Nope, I cant, but Im not in the business of complying with Federal law. The people who took my father in laws pistol, however, are. Last time I checked, theft is still illegal.
     
  15. ny32182

    ny32182 Member

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    Not sure what "paperwork" it is, but there has got to be a way to get his brother on it. "Sell the pistol" to his brother if need be. This can't be that hard.

    I've sold/traded guns to people out of state numerous times, and the only "paperwork" regarding who could pick it up was an informal note about who could pick it up.
     
  16. doc2rn

    doc2rn Member

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    All he needs is a State ID card and a piece of mail with his sons address. He doesnt have to change his CDL. You can get a state ID card with a passport/birth certificate/SSN card etc..or any of the two pieces usually required to start work and a change of address form from the post office. Same thing happened when I moved here to Ohio but the FFL wasnt a jerk about it.
     
  17. Bozwell

    Bozwell Member

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    Where is he living now? Wherever that is, just have him get a license in that state and have the FFL ship it there. If he's living in Montana, get a license in Montana. From what I remember, all you need to establish residency in a location is a current desire to stay there indefinitely. That doesn't mean you won't move in the future or contemplate the possibility of moving in the future, but only that you currently plan to reside in that state with no fixed plans of moving at a certain time in the future. AFAIK, you aren't required to own land, lease a residence, have a job, or anything else in a state to be a resident.
     
  18. ZeroJunk

    ZeroJunk Member

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    Is he saying the FFL in AK is telling him who he has to transfer it to and that it cannot be changed?

    If he plans to keep it he is going to have to transfer it to somebody sooner or later.
     
  19. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Did your FIL call this dealer before shipping the gun to let him know what he planned to do? Because the dealer should have known there is no legal way for him to transfer the gun to your FIL until he becomes a MT resident. That's federal law, as already posted, and the dealer should have explained that to your FIL.

    OTOH threatening to keep the gun for himself after 30 days isn't right either, and there's certainly no reason that the dealer can't transfer the gun to your FIL's brother, assuming that he is a MT resident and not a prohibited person. At that point though the brother can't give the gun to your FIL; he has to ship it to a dealer in your FIL's new state for transfer back to him.

    FWIW this is why if I ever have to move, I'll turn everything except the guns over to the movers/shippers, and the guns, ammo, and safes will go in my truck.
     
  20. Danb1215

    Danb1215 Member

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    Not much you can do with getting it transferred in Montana. In this case he's not trying to steal it, hes trying not to lose his FFL, as this transfer would unfortunately be illegal.
    However if the dealer is unwilling to ship it back to Alaska at your FIL's expense then he is stealing it, same as if he took a torch to the safe.

    My short answer: Try to have it shipped back to an FFL in Alaska so your FIL can get it down to the lower 48 another way.
     
  21. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Correct. Which, as previously stated, his brother could fill out the form and take possession. It is not within The FFL's scope to deny that transaction, he's just being a persnickety jerk.

    Unless your FIL signed a document that stipulates this condition, it would constitute theft.
     
  22. dogtown tom

    dogtown tom Member

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    1. It's not theft because your father in law sent it to the Montana dealer willingly. It eventually may amount to unlawful conversion, but at present the Montana dealer has committed no crime.
    2. The Montana dealer cannot transfer the handgun to your FIL as he is not a resident of Montana.
    3. The Montana dealer cannot transfer it to another family member in Montana because it would be a straw purchase.

    So............your father in laws options are:
    1. Pay the Montana dealer to return the firearm to Alaska. The FIL can then ship the handgun via common carrier addressed to himself at the location he will be staying while in Montana.
    2. Establish residency in Montana. He does not need a Montana DL, but would need a government issued photo ID (his Alaska DL) plus alternate government issued documents to show that he is a resident of Montana.
     
  23. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    There you go. Just undo the error.

    Why was the dad trying to do an FFL to FFL transfer out of Alaska anyway? It's cumbersome, expensive, unnecessary and in this case appears to be impossible anyway.

    If he's still legally an Alaska resident, he's going to have to come back up here to get his handgun from the dealer, then he can take it with him as checked baggage in the usual manner for handguns.

    Either that or he can have the Montana or Alaska dealer put it up for sale on consignment.

    He should either fly with the arms himself in locking cases or ship them to himself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2011
  24. dirtykid

    dirtykid Member

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    ^^ This ! and then come back and let us all know WHICH FFL in Montana to AVOID !,, why's he being such a "richard-for-short" ?
     
  25. HankR

    HankR Member

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    Could the FFL claim that he thinks this is a straw purchase (selling it to the brother, after the FIL is denied)?
     
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