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fillers

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by tahoe2, Feb 4, 2012.

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  1. tahoe2

    tahoe2 Member

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    what should I use to fill the case in reduced loads (1/2 to 2/3 full)?
    is cotton from cotton balls acceptable?
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    No!!!

    Cotton doesn't burn all that well.
    It can clog up, or pack in the bore and stick and create a bore obstruction.

    Dacron pillow stuffing is an accepted filler.
    It burns instantly without leaving any residue.

    But, what load are you filling, and why are you stuffing it???
    Some reduced loads don't need stuffing.
    Many 1/2 full cases are not reduced loads.
    And some 1/2 full cases are likely to blow up in your face, stuffing or not!

    Need more details of the load before you shoot your eye out with stuffing!!

    rc
     
  3. tahoe2

    tahoe2 Member

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    7x57 mauser out of my Speer #11 manual
    26 grns IMR 4198 under a Hornady 139 btsp for 2200 fps, stuffing (loosely)
    just to keep the powder in contact with the primer for better ignition.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2012
  4. 4895

    4895 Member

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    Be careful putting things in the case that don't belong. If you have a compensator for example, you will likely cause damage to it. Smokeless powder should not need a 'filler' like black powder. Double check your load book and ask questions when needed.
     
  5. 4895

    4895 Member

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    I believe you can use H-4895 for reduced rifle loads. That is the only one I use for light loads. No stuffing needed.
     
  6. tahoe2

    tahoe2 Member

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    no compensater, vintage 1931 Spanish mauser long rifle, 7x57, I read somewhere long ago that a loose filler would help keep the powder in line with primer ignition.
    I haven't seen any reduced loads for H4895, but I use full power loads in my 8mm mauser, it groups pretty good with those.
     
  7. 4895

    4895 Member

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  8. ReloaderFred

    ReloaderFred Member

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    Loads with case fillers have to be worked up from the start with the filler. You can't just add filler to any load, since it increases pressure, among other things. One of the bad things that can happen is you can ring your chamber, which means there will be an expansion caused by the filler and it basically ruins a good chamber.

    I have a couple of loads that require case filler, but I use Super Grex, which is discontinued. I have just enough of it to last me until I die. Those loads were worked up from the very beginning using the Grex as a filler.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
     
  9. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    There's a shotshell buffer called PSB that is perfect for a filler. I've used it in my .303's with both IMR4198 and SR4759. I weighed the amount required to fill the case, than added that to the weight of the bullet and adjusted my charges accordingly. Cream of Wheat also works well.
    You might do some research over at the Cast Boolit site as those goes have forgotten more about the use of fillers than most of us will ever know.

    35W
     
  10. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    I trided them for a while. I only found them to increase pressure. If I was to use them then a little piece of toilet paper folded & pushed against the powder seemed like the best thing.
     
  11. 918v

    918v Member

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    Fillers ruin accuracy.

    Get some Tail Boss and load up to the base of the bullet. Whatever advantage other powders hold is overshadowed by the convenience.
     
  12. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    Interesting. I've had the exact opposite experience with filler. As I stated above, I used filler when loading extruded powders such as IMR4198 and SR4759 in a couple of .303's. I actually found out about using fillers from an excellent article on the now defunct Surplus Rifle website. In the article, the difference in non-filler and filler loads was substantial.
    Despite the excellent reports from using Trail Boss, all of which I find credible and believeable, I doubt I'll ever use it because it's about 25% more expensive than the shotgun/pistol type powders I've been using for several years now.

    918, what cartridge and powder were you using when fillers destroyed your accuracy?

    35W
     
  13. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    Red Dot, Bullseye, 10B101, WC844, WC846, & .... It never helped in the loads I've tried but it sure does push the pressure up.
     
  14. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    I'm not sure fillers were ever intended to be used with powders such as B'Eye, Red Dot and other pistol/shotgun powders. Powders such as these, especially the two you mentioned, are very position insensitive and ignite easily so really don't need fillers.
    IMR4198 is the slowest powder I've ever tried in reduced loads so I don't know about the others.

    35W
     
  15. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    I agree just the ones I've tried & they shot worse.

    I read somewhere about someone haveing good luck so I tried to see what results I got.
     
  16. fguffey

    fguffey Member

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    Dacron pillow stuffing is an accepted filler.
    It burns instantly without leaving any residue.

    Fantastic, simply FANTASTIC, a pillow filler that burns as fast as gunpowder in a chamber, and it burns completely, and fast, so fast the time used to measure rate of burn is in milliseconds???
    One of the closest firing ranges is having trouble staying open, seems there is no such thing as ‘too cheap to shoot’. Bullets are being collected that have escaped the range and hit houses a mile away, anyhow, shooters are doing it to themselves.

    I was involved in a similar discussion, in the real world, had to do with melted lead, seems the powder burning in the chamber melts the back of the bullet, and I said something like, lead melts faster than paper burns? and I say that because I have shot paper wrapped bullets and noticed when walking the range to the target I found paper from the bullets unburned, so I wondered how is it possible to train paper not to burn when the heat is sufficient to melt the back of a lead bullet, then I wondered about compression as it applies to something between primer/powder and back of the bullet, I understand the bullet leaves the case and is forced out the barrel, I also understand when something is compressed compression has an effect on shortening the material, I also understand when something is compressed the compressed material is forced outward, it is at this point I decide against compressing materials between the head of the case and back of the bullet because I do not know how dense this material is when the pressure goes up to many thousands of pounds, and I do know about sandblasting. I also know the nozzle last longer if it is made of a ceramic material.

    Then there is the phenomenal occurrence , reduced loads and rendering your gun scrap, it does not happen often, but in the beginning, it had to do with reduced loads, and the ‘catch all phrase’ when something is rendered scrap, “I ‘musta’ double charged one of the cases”.

    F. Guffey
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  17. 918v

    918v Member

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    35W:

    I tried them in the 44 Mag, 357 Mag, 308, and 45-70. If you tip the gun up before every shot there is no benefit. Adding filler doubled group size. It raised pressures. So I gave up on it.
     
  18. ReloaderFred

    ReloaderFred Member

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    It's pretty clear from this discussion that only 35 Whelen, rcmodel and I understand the use and purpose of case fillers in "some" cartridges and component combinations in those cartridges. Walkalong also does, but he hasn't joined this discussion.

    As I stated above, loads with case fillers, and that means proper case fillers, MUST be worked up from the beginning with the filler in place. You don't just add a case filler to an existing load and hope for better results. That's a recipe for disaster.

    Blanket statements that "they don't work" clearly show a lack of understanding of the issue, and the reasons for using them in "some" loads.

    I don't recommend the novice reloader trying to add a case filler, since most don't understand what goes on inside the case when the primer strikes the firing pin. There are whole chapters written on case fillers and how, and when, to use them. One line statements don't negate those many chapters of research and experience.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
     
  19. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    -----------------
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2012
  20. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    Thinking pretty high of yourself.

    It sounds like he is talking about any powder that doesn't fill the case.
     
  21. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    What Reloaderfred said

    SOME reduced loads have a small amount of powder, there is a phenomenon that can cause smokeless powder to detonate, NOT burn if too little is used, it has to do with how the pressure wave builds. My understanding is filler won't help that.

    It's rather complicated, and quite frankly beyond my current understanding.

    ONE THING I DO KNOW
    a case filler is MUCH different than shot buffer, shot buffer is just that, a space filling powder that is designed to cushion shot keeping is spherical and improve the pattern.

    A metallic case filler is something used to fill the neck and top of the case to keep the powder closer to the primer etc. They why and hows and whens I don't know, and would be leery to mess with unless I do understand what I'm doing and why.

    In general, if you don't understand why someone/something varies from the regular steps of reloading, don't do it, stick to what you know is safe, your eyes, fingers and life are not something to be gambled on something you heard about somewhere....
     
  22. Shadow 7D

    Shadow 7D Member

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    Have you read his posts, have you asked him questions?

    I find his answers agree with 'reliable sources' like powder manufactures and pass the sniff test, he is quite knowledgeable on this subject. Just like RCmodel, who I have PM questions, and he was kinds enough to answer them and explain it in a way I understood.
     
  23. 918v

    918v Member

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    Are you talking about me? I never said they don't work, just that they ruin accuracy. I hope I don't have to explain the difference between those two statements.

    And how do you know I didn't work up the loads? You think you're the only one around here who knows how to slap a round together?

    I'm not interested in 3 MOA accuracy with filler if my gun is shooting MOA without.
     
  24. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    I used dacron for some reduced 45LC loads a few years ago after encountering evidense of position sensitive powder burning. Accuracy was fine.
    I actually learned of dacron from my #10 Speer. If memory serves me well, (questionable) Speer defined the method quite loosely. But none the less, it worked just fine in the 45LC for me. I didn't weigh it, I just used enough to keep the powder in position to the flash hole, which didn't require much at all.
    But I wouldn't add it to a case unless I'm seeing evidense of ignition or burn issues as follows. If the case is sooted only on one side all the way back to the head, but then it goes away after positioning the firearm vertically and then carefully lowering it to a latteral position, your experiencing a position sensitive powder burn.
     
  25. kingmt

    kingmt Member

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    Yes. I read his post. I think his post are very informative to the new members of this form. He also post resources with a lot of knowledge. I also think he goes a little beyond on some things that doesn't mater. This isn't here or there tho. I just thought that statement was a little conceded.
     
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