Flashlight Method:Why I stink and how do I fix it?

[FieroCDSP]

Last night's local IDPA shoot showed my complete ineptitude with a flashlight. I started out with it held between my support hand fingers, and using my strong hand as the bumper for the button. The light was too high in my grip, and I kept hitting the mag release with it, obviously not helpful to the situation.

Any recommendations on books or videos that specificly address the use of a hand-held light while shooting?

 

[Chuck R.]

Check out:

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/557/sesent/00

I've been fortunate as we have a certified police trainer that does low-light classes a couple times a year, so I can get a couple classes in. Like you we shoot low-no-light in our matches quite a bit. I also have my own range so in the spring/fall I get to practice a bit.

Even with the above it's a perishable skill. I prefer the Rogers-Surefire IF I know I'm going to shoot IE a match and have my Z2, but I also like the Harries because I find it more flexible.

I'd practice doing some dry-fire "courses" around your house.

Chuck

 

[BOONER]

practice them all and then decide. i prefer neck index overall of them but stay fresh on them all.

 

[possum]

i suggest that you seek out trainning at a good school. in a good low light course, but if that isn't possible for you then there are a few that i practice.

my favorite is the weapon mounted light as i allows the most control over the weapon, but since that isn't robally an option for you in this case, my next fav is like booner i like the neck index, the syringe works pretty good too.

i have never liked the fbi style or the other methods.

 

[spwenger]

Street vs. Games

The problem with flashlight techniques that wed the light to the gun is that although they may work well on the square range, on the street you will be searching with your muzzle, possibly pointing it at people and things you don't intend to shoot (but could shoot when startled.)

This is the reason that so many of us have gone to some variation of the SureFire variation of the FBI technique. In other words, use one hand to work the gun independently of the light. I prefer to index the knuckles of the flashlight hand under my cheekbone so that the flashlight points wherever I swivel my head to look. Most people can do reasonably well one-handed out to four yards and those who participate in the shooting games on a regular basis should be able to do even better.

When shooting from behind vertical cover, use of a flashlight is one of the few circumstances where I prefer to crowd the cover. I will usually go to a high kneeling postion and raise the flashlight over my head, indexing it on the side of the cover. I do this to eliminate the splashback of light I have noticed when a high-intensity light is used to the rear of cover.

If you are engaging a known threat at distances where you don't feel comfortable shooting one-handed, my preference is the Harries technique. It allows quick coupling and uncoupling of the gun hand and the flashlight hand. I'm sure that it is well enough described and/or illustrated elsewhere (including on my own site, that I don't need to describe it here.

 

[R127]

If you want to get good at low light shooting with a flashlight buy some chickens. After a few middle of the night coon attacks you'll figure out what actually works pretty darn fast.

 

[FieroCDSP]

If you want to get good at low light shooting with a flashlight buy some chickens. After a few middle of the night coon attacks you'll figure out what actually works pretty darn fast.

Hmm...I could do that, but I think the cops would be on my case for firing inside city limits and less than a quarter mile away from a college. That and the neighbors probably wouldn't like the chickens.


That first link looked good. The opinions help. The main reason I went out on a limb and admitted my ignorance is the fact that I had never really studied into it, merely getting by in the low-light shoots with ambiant light (dark-shaded lenses to acclimate to the dark before shooting, then yellow tint to enhance what there is). I found a weakness I need to address, and if my post makes one reader re-evaluate their own capability, it's not a total waste. Practice practice practice...

 

[R127]

Still I have never heard of any class that randomly wakes you up in the middle of the night with no warning and no time to get ready to engage a fast moving target with a small kill zone among a number of friendlies before you're fully alert. Unless you are cop practicing for something that may happen while you're on shift that is in all seriousness probably a critical deficiency in the training program.

FWIW I much prefer a weapon mounted light for that kind of work than a hand held. That means extra bulk on a ccw but that isn't a problem for a home defense weapon. If it has to be a hand held light then Harries, neck index or the decidedly un-tactical appearing technique of placing the light on top of your head like a headlamp without a strap. Most people will never be as fast or as accurate without both hands on the pistol and unless you have some really killer night sights you're going to need to illuminate those sights one way or another. Glow in the dark dots don't get it done right.

Some people don't like the idea of a light near their body because they're affraid that will make them an easy target but that's like the idea that using a light will give away your position well in advance to any potential enemy. The answer to both problems is the same.... don't turn the light on until you're ready to actually engage. At most use a quick pulse to help you navigate if you really have to due to terrain. The light is to help you hit and hopefully momentarily suprise your adversary, not to help you find him. You really need to do some force on force experimentation with this one and that's another area where many classes fall short.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

I too use a neck index for about 80% of my low light work.

 

[fastbolt]

This subject generates a lot of discussion and no small amount of debate, even among experienced instructors.

There's a reason for that ...

Situations and circumstances can vary quite a bit in the real world. Different techniques may prove to be a bit more beneficial in different circumstances.

While debating the relative advantages/disadvantages of the various light techniques and equipment, I'd offer that safety considerations must remain paramount and foremost in folk's minds, during training & in actual situations.

Training to do something with one hand while holding a drawn weapon in the other hand does present some serious safety considerations. I think this needs to be emphasized and kept uppermost in everyone's mind while engaged in training & practice.

Hand confusion and sympathetic contraction can still present potential problems, even when something doesn't occur which startles the person using the weapon & light. Balance destabilization (tripping, stumbling, unexpectedly shifting footing, etc.) can also create the potential for sympathetic clenching. Imagine how trying to hang onto the light, clenching it and functioning the button/switch, might result in a hand confusion situation which unintentionally functions the trigger.

Naturally, when you consider the potential for something 'startling' someone operating within a stressful situation, the potential for a ND may increase. Trigger safety/finger placement is critical.

Yeah, I know. Old hat. Obvious. Everyone already knows this, right?

I can think of a couple of instances where LE involved in a some separate special enforcement activities experienced ND's while holding a weapon in one hand and doing something else with the other hand. One of them was manipulating a flashlight at the time.

I know both cops personally, and both of them have received a level of firearms training unlikely to be equaled by most 'line level' cops throughout their careers.

Once safety considerations are emphasized so they become ingrained and 'refreshed' during training ... then there's the matter of choosing a flashlight techniques ... or techniques ... to serve your needs in all of the situations someone anticipates may be encountered.

I've always used variations of the Harries, FBI and neck or shoulder techniques. Negotiating different things while searching, performing suddenly- required, unplanned different actions with a non-gun hand (being able to contain, reposition or temporarily stash the light source) can create some stress on the user. Remember you may have gun in one hand, too, right?.

My assignment requires that I enter residences and commercial buildings virtually everyday, a number of which are lacking electricity or maybe just lights or functioning light fixtures. I carry a selection of available flashlights in my gear, although I commonly use one of a couple of small units which I carry on my person.

Different buttons/switches can affect things to a degree. So can the diameter, length, overall size and lumen output of the light source.

Larger spaces can require more power, as can the level of potential 'light effect' desired 'out front' of the user. Depends on how clearly you want to see something, as well as the nature of reflective, angled or obstructive surfaces/spaces present. Lots of variables can make for unexpected results. Unexpected splash-back can be annoying, distracting and possibly even dangerous.

Mostly I just want to be able to see, recognize and illuminate potential threats while performing my job. I don't plan on directing traffic during my job anymore.

I have slightly different needs when selecting a light source for off-duty usage. Some obvious overlap, but not completely.

I've been using flashlights as part of my job for the better part of 3 decades. I've found some techniques and methods which didn't work in some actual situations nearly as well as I'd expected. Changes and refinements, in both equipment and techniques resulted. Still working on it.

Adding the safe deployment and use of weapons to those circumstances escalates potential safety issues tremendously.

Attaching a light source to a weapon comes with its own advantages and disadvantages, too, not the least of which is I've encountered a lot of things which I did NOT want to cover with a weapon's muzzle.

You can't call a bullet back.

Keep studying the increasingly available material regarding the safe and effective deployment and use of flashlights/light courses, and consider looking for some reputable, quality training offered for this subject.

I don't claim to have the answer, or answers, but I'm seen some of the involved problems which I'd like to continue trying to address and resolve, if only for my own circumstances.

Fortunately ... for all of us ... the increasing number of good quality light devices available for use, as well as the proliferation and use of them in LE & Military fields, is resulting in some increased understanding of the needs of the users when the equipment is used in potentially dangerous situations.

 

[CWL]

I also use neck index for shooting nowadays because it is about as accurate as Harries and not tiring. I was forced to learn Harries and my instructors have always said that "if it isn't uncomfortable, you aren't doing it right" -which makes it a dumb technique IMO. In order for me to do Harries properly, my watch would bruise the back of my strong hand.

Fiero -just ask your fellow IDPA shooters for help, they'll be happy to show you proper stances and holds.

 

[fastbolt]

An advantage (perhaps situational, but still arguably an advantage) to the Harries Technique is the enhanced controllability, recoil management and recovery time sometimes realized with an albeit 'modified' 2-handed shooting technique.

If you're stressing and tiring yourself, however, it's possible the technique isn't being properly performed.

I've seen some folks whose physiques (shoulder width, arm reach, flexibility, etc.), physical conditioning, adopted postures, choice of equipment and even outer garments didn't exactly create an overall set of conditions which provided for optimal use of the Harries Technique. Adding unexpected condition such as searching/illuminating areas while descending/ascending stairs, sloped & uneven outside terrain, etc., etc., and things can sometimes affect the user in ways not previously considered.

Of course, stress can be physically tiring in and of itself, even if unintended physical tension and unnecessary exertion isn't occurring.

The world is a big place. Some training venues aren't able to take everything into consideration, for safety reasons (always valid and critical), if not structural/design reasons. Running, climbing, moving around/over/under obstacles and other physically taxing conditions can also affect someone's ability to exert good control over their limbs. Sometimes being able to use more than just a 1-handed shooting platform can be beneficial.

Folks who enjoy IDPA competition might be a good resource, as some of them may have invested the time and money to attend and bring back some training methods from knowledgeable and experienced trainers/instructors. Might not hurt to ask around.

 

[R127]

Yes, weapon mounted lights do mean you will be sweeping no-shoot targets with your muzzle which surely has to be against one of the 10 Commandments, 7 Deadly Sins or at least really bad. Then again the reality is that when you have to use a gun the muzzle will be sweeping all sorts of no-shoot targets you just might not immediately realize it because they will tend to be further off in the distance or behind concealment such as flimsy walls or brush. The flip side of it is that if you aren't pointing your light and your weapon at the same thing it will take you that much longer to bring your weapon to bear and fire on a shoot target. Also with the light illuminating anything your muzzle covers it means that you've got as good a chance as you are going to get to make the shoot/no shoot determination. The bottom line for me is keep the finger off the trigger till you want to take a shot. Nothing is 100% but that's the best compromise I've found. Works for me anyway.

There's definately no one right answer in a fight and fighting form is by necessity often at least a little different than the theoretically perfect form of the technique. Even then it isn't uncommon for good technique to feel weird and uncomfortable at least until you've been training it a long time and sometimes it'll always feel unnatural. Easy, natural techniques are great and should probably be preferred wherever they can be used successfully. Sometimes the weird stuff is better though.

It's hard for me to keep in mind that many people on the net who are interested in this kind of stuff have never been in a serious fight in their lives. They have a totally different range of abilities and reactions compared to people who are more seasoned and there's plenty of variation in that group too. Everybody needs to actually try out their technique under the most realistic conditions they can replicate and hopefully with a force on force aspect so they can determine what they can actually put into use effectively.

 

[El Tejon]

Hands are the same but different. As you cannot build custom cabinets with just one chainsaw, try a bunch and see what works for you.

The method described really works for my thick hands. I like having two hands, as much as I can, on the pistol, but it depends on what I'm doing.

As for videos, as a starting point may I recommend TR's lowlight video. However, nothing like a class or a dozen to get it down.

Do you use a lanyard or a ring, Fiero?

 

[possum]

The problem with flashlight techniques that wed the light to the gun is that although they may work well on the square range, on the street you will be searching with your muzzle, possibly pointing it at people and things you don't intend to shoot (but could shoot when startled.)

unlike most i am able to function and operate under stress. i have entered/cleared/breached/raided
countless establishments at night with my issue m4/m16etc. and i always have had a weapon monuted light. i have no issues with using it, as i have done it so much and feel so cofortable doing it that there is no issus. i have also trianned in low light but more than that i have real world operatig experince in low and no light sittuations,

you think low light is tuff try ir and nods only

trigger disciplin period!

have you ever been in a stack? in mout operations? at some point in time if you want to or not you are gona "flag" someone, another friendly, a no shoo target etc, it is gonna happen. you do all you can to minimize it, and you maintain trigger disciplin at all times and there will be no issues.

 

[R127]

I agree. I have come to believe that most of these scenarios describing people becoming all thumbs under stress are talking about secretaries, burger flippers, cubicle workers and other people who haven't been in real fights and do not train regularly. There's nothing wrong with those people, truth is they do valuable jobs and not getting involved in a lot of violent encounters is most likely a sign of right living. It's good that training is being developed for those people because they need to be able to defend themselves and it's probably better advice than I could give them because I just can't put myself in their place. But to say that is the universal standard for human performance just isn't correct.

 

[VARifleman]

An advantage (perhaps situational, but still arguably an advantage) to the Harries Technique is the enhanced controllability, recoil management and recovery time sometimes realized with an albeit 'modified' 2-handed shooting technique.

I found the opposite to be true. I hold the light is such a way it looks like I'm about to throw it like a javelin. Harries and Surefire techniques are contrary to the two handed shooting I practice without the light and will actually induce malfunctions.

 

[fastbolt]

I found the opposite to be true. I hold the light is such a way it looks like I'm about to throw it like a javelin. Harries and Surefire techniques are contrary to the two handed shooting I practice without the light and will actually induce malfunctions.

Well, if you use a 2-handed shooting technique which serves you well in the circumstances in which you find yourself shooting, and anticipate finding yourself shooting ... and you've found another light technique which can be adapted to your chosen skill-set ... as long as it works for you, then I certainly wouldn't presume to tell you otherwise.

I don't use the Harries technique all of the time myself, but that's because there are alternative methods which have worked well for me in actual situations where application of the Harries Technique seemed inappropriate at the time. This doesn't bother me because I train fairly often, and I've never felt particularly inclined to limit myself to just one technique in my study of the martial arts, either.

Unfortunately, I have the opportunity to see a dismaying number of LE folks who either haven't bothered to properly practice the Harries Technique since it was first taught to them, or else they may never have properly learned it in the first place. In many of these instances I have to correct them because they're using the lights in ways which interfere with their use/control of the weapon, or would seem to have the potential to prevent the weapon from consistently functioning normally.

However, some folks would seem to have a better chance of hitting their intended target, especially under stress, while employing a 2-handed technique than a 1-handed technique.

Haven't found the 'perfect' technique yet ...

 

[Robo_Railer]

Haven't found the 'perfect' technique yet ...

I agree. There really doesn't seem to be any "perfect" technique.

I found this on the 'Net, so I guess it's not exactly "classified information."
In an article in American COP magazine, Tiger McKee gives the pros and cons of several techniques already mentioned in this thread, as well as weapon-mounted lights. He, too, suggests practicing at home: "(Y)ou don't have to visit a shooting range to train in low light. Using a dummy weapon (mine were sawn out of wood) you can practice all the necessary skills in your home, garage or back yard without firing a shot. Then go to the range to confirm and hone your manipulation and marksmanship skills while handling the light." Low Light Combatives

There's a Low Light/No Light Tactical Handgun & Urban Rifle course coming up near here in mid-April. I sure hope I can come up with another 400 rounds of .40 S&W and 300 rounds of 5.56mm by then.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Do you use a lanyard or a ring, Fiero?

Sorry for the delay, El T, work schedule sucks, along with the weather (SNOW!!! God, make it stop!!!). I'm assuming you mean for carrying the light. At the moment, it's a chest pocket on my jacket, but that's only because I haven't gotten my CCW license yet (it's on my list for the next few months). It's a Surefire G2, so I'll probably go with a belt holster for it. I've never been particularly comfortable with things around my neck, and I'd prefer to keep it covered in a pouch, as I have a tendency to beat the snot out of things in normal daily life and a ring that leaves it exposed would probably cost me a light. I can't own decent watches, as my hands and arms take a lot of abuse (and I'm only in retail).

Again, I'm only now starting to take low-light practice more seriously. A few sweeps through the house with the light and an air-soft gun on a weekly basis should help.

 

[Bob F.]

Most likely encounter is at night/low light. So y'all need to practice with your light. Who cares if you look stupid holding your flashlight in bright daylight at the range? Beats heck out of ending up dead (not that we all won't, eventually).

Last spring shot a night match with newly acquired Surefire. Had always used a 3-d Maglight previously (He!!eva CLUB!!). SHot 100rds or so beforehand, waiting for dark. Had 3 or 4 mals on a 30rd course. Needless to say I didn't do well. No malfs since, in daylight. Only thing I can figure is that I was "limp-wristing". Needless to say: I've practiced with the Surefire since!!!!!!!

Stay safe.
Bob