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flechette shotgun rounds?

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by colt.45, May 14, 2007.

  1. colt.45

    colt.45 Member

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    has anyone here tried making flechette shotgun rounds? or even think about it? well when i saw this http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM005-57714-2851.html, i had o do some research and found that several armies have tried to employ flechette rounds into combat.

    the benefits are abound but mabey there are some legality issues. (not lethality lol) and since you can buy them by the pound now... would any of you put this shrough your shot gun? what choke would you have to use since they are made of hardened steel?
     
  2. Quiet

    Quiet Senior Member

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    In some states, flechette rounds are a felony to posses.
     
  3. The Unknown User

    The Unknown User Member

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    I don't understand, what's a flechette round? How is it different from a typical buckshot round?

    Excuse my ignorance, I'm new to shooting. :(
     
  4. Mannix

    Mannix Member

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    It's a shotgun round filled with little finned steel darts instead of round lead shot.
     
  5. The Unknown User

    The Unknown User Member

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    That sounds very deadly. :(
     
  6. dfariswheel

    dfariswheel Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, as experiments in Vietnam proved, the Flechetts are unsuitable for use in shotguns.

    The problems are many.
    First, the darts have very little mass, so they don't penetrate well.
    When they do, they have virtually no "stopping power".
    It was common to see hits in which even though the darts hit point on, many of them simply failed to penetrate.

    Since the darts have almost no mass, they lack even moderate striking power.
    In Vietnam, there were a number of cases of attacking VC troops shot with Flechetts who were literally dead on their feet, but who continued attacking for some time until they bled out internally.

    Second, in order the fill the case, 1/2 of the Flechetts are placed into the shell backward.
    Many of the darts fail to turn point-on, and it's common for darts to hit sideways, or to fail to stabilize at all.

    While the Flechetts COULD be deadly, it was a case of deadly....... eventually.....maybe.
    "Eventually" is something you don't want at close range.

    Bottom line, the military withdrew the flechett loads due to completely unreliable results.
    You still see them sold by those companies that sell "trick" shotgun shells like the "Dragon's Breath" that shoots out a flame, tear gas loads, and large shot joined by cord.
    In other words, loads no serious shooter would dream of using.

    To date, there is NO shotgun load that's better then a load of lead buckshot.
     
  7. hexidismal

    hexidismal Senior Member

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    *sigh* dfariswheel said EVERYTHING I wanted to say ! Listen to the man though, flechettes are for fools and mall ninjas.
     
  8. Bezoar

    Bezoar member

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    however dont forget the federal law that says no armor piercing ammunition, and any projectile made of STEEL like the fletchette would qualify as armor piercing. And who wants to get pinched for using "armor pieercing ammo" that doesnt do as much as a good hi velocity charge of no 4 buck?
     
  9. GRIZ22

    GRIZ22 Senior Member

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    The Army also abandonded flecthettes in artillery rounds. Conventional frag works better.
     
  10. FIFTYGUY

    FIFTYGUY Member

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    Yup.

    From the Cheaper Than Dirt page:

    Hmmm, where do we start?

    1. Geneva Convention says nothing about the type of weapons used in combat. People generally mean the *Hague* Convention, or possibly the Treaty of St. Petersburg when they wory about a weapon system complying with the "Laws of War".

    2. Flechettes were used in WWI. Most famously dropped out of biplanes by the French against ground troops.

    3. Flechettes come in all kinds of shapes, sizes, and weights. (Is a really big one a "Flech"? ;) )

    4. Flechette loads *were* tested in the field. They weren't used widely because they just didn't work so well. 12ga Buckshot has a lot more stopping power than the flechette loads did.

    5. Flechette loads *were* and *are* widely used in cannister and shrapnel loads for cannon. The "Beehive" rounds were well known for their effectiveness from 106mm Recoilless Rifles as a lightweight way of dealing with human wave attacks. The M1001 HVCC round for the Mk19 et al. allows the gun to be used for short range and perimeter defense.

    6. The sectional density, "pointiness", and high-strength material of flechettes has more to do with the penetration of body armor than their velocity. In most applications, especially from 12ga, the flechette loads have comparable velocity to other payloads.

    7. In order for flechettes to penetrate armor, they need to be fully stabilized. At close ranges, most payload-launched flechettes are not fully stabilized and many don't even encounter the target point-first. Which does make for nasty, if somewhat superficial, wounds against unarmored targets.

    8. Flechette payloads *are* used in aerial rockets against other aerial targets.

    9. Certainly not the "ultimate military weapon", if such a thing exists... :rolleyes: However, *when properly designed*they can have spectacular performance. There are many "armor-piercing discarding-sabot fin-stabilized" projectiles that do a wonder on armor, all the way from the SPIW project to tank cannon. Broadly speaking, many missiles and rockets (and arrows) have a flechette-like design. Even the HARP "Martlets", Nazi V-3 "Pump Gun", Dynamite Gun, and Davis Gun projos had "flechette-like" designs. But this was for aerodynamic reasons, not terminal effects.

    If they weren't widely adopted, maybe they're not "the ultimate military weapon". :D

    But so do the drawbacks! ;)

    Not many legality issues, unless you're in ********** or similar (why would you stay there?)

    They've been available by the pound for decades.

    I have. The commercial rounds were absolutely pathetic. I think I could literally throw them faster than they came out the muzzle. So I loaded my own. Very educational, and frustrating.

    In My Experience the problem is not the choke (but might as well stick with Cylinder). I gouged the *forcing cone*. The fins cut through the hull or wad and deeply scored the cone. In one load I *vaporized* one side of the plastic hull forward of the wad/powder line.

    Terminal results were starting to get impressive. Went through a heavy solid wood commercial door. I shot a 12-lb chunk of sausage, and it nailed it to the wooden backstop. Spread was so great as t make it useless for anything but point-blank range - something like 10' diameter at 10 yards.

    I just got some aftermarket 40mm flechette rounds for my M203. But the ballistics are just as pathetic as the military ones. All the low-pressure grenade-launcher flechette loads do is a lousy 160+ fps with about 50 flechettes. I seriously doubt they'd penetrate even the lightest body armor at that velocity. But you probably would get the attention of everybody in the room if you shot it through a doorway. :eek:
     
  11. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    Actually, a really big one is called an arrow. Flèchette is the diminutive form of flèche which means arrow in French. So, literally translated, it means little arrow.

    And this concludes this week's episode of Jorg's Worthless Trivia. Stay tuned next week for another exciting edition.

    As far as flechette rounds, I would only recommend them in 70mm variety out of a M260 (M261 where hi-capacity is legal).
     
  12. FIFTYGUY

    FIFTYGUY Member

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    Bezoar said:

    You mean USC 18 ss 922(a)(7)-(8)? The definitions in ss 921(a)(17) explain that the lawly is mainly concerned with handgun ammo, and shotgun ammo is generally exempt.

    I'd agree that 27 pellets of #4 buck in a tight pattern would be far more effective than 20 flechettes in a super-wide pattern for almost any purpose.
     
  13. FIFTYGUY

    FIFTYGUY Member

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    Jorg said:

    Didn't catch my "smiley" there, eh? What's next, the feathers on arrows are "fleching" and a guy who puts them there is a "flecher"? :neener:

    I love it! :D

    Although I understand these were for air-to-air combat. The flechettes are substantially larger than those in 12ga, 40mm, and even Beehive rounds.

    You can buy a slightly-combat-damaged low-cap one here:

    http://www.bigskysurplus.com/main.htm#2.75 INCH

    Finding a good IWB holster might be troublesome. ;)
     
  14. Jorg Nysgerrig

    Jorg Nysgerrig Member

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    Oh, I saw the smiley, it was just more of me being a know-it-all. ;) I tried coming up with a Fletch/Chevy Chase joke, but it didn't work out. I suppose we could have compared Fletch and Fletchettes to Chevy and Chevettes. On second thought, it's better we if we don't.
     
  15. Mike U.

    Mike U. Member

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    I wonder if these would work as blowgun fodder?
    Or are they too heavy? Hmmm...
     
  16. Plink

    Plink Senior Member

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    I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who had problems with flechettes. About 15 years ago, I bought a pound and handloaded some 12 guage loads with them. No matter what I did, what velocity I drove them at, or how I packed them in the wad, they always tumbled. Most of them wouldn't penetrate a sheet of plywood at 40 yards. I gave up hope thinking the problem was either my loading, or the crappy bulk artillery pulled flechettes.
     
  17. Mannix

    Mannix Member

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    I was thinking the same thing myself, but you would have to make something to hold it as it goes down. Maybe a foam plug that breaks into thirds when it reaches the end of a barrel? Not sure if it would be lethal, though. You could also do the same thing with a shotgun(but with something better than foam). I bet that would punch through armor. I think I might get a pack and experiment a little.
     

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