Florida Assault Weapons Ban

[FlSwampRat]

So I guess there must be two AWB ballots.

I found this one first:

https://ballotpedia.org/Florida_Ban...ions_for_Firearm_Possession_Initiative_(2020)

It’s basically a ban on magazines over 7 rounds along with firearms capable of firing in “fully automatic mode” and “sniper rifles” (I imagine 50 bmg rifles is what they are getting at here). Hopefully the form 4 on my second machine gun clears before this thing passes!
Dan

The wording on this one is very scary.
The Florida Ban on Military-Style Firearms and Disqualifications for Firearm Possession Initiative (Initiative #18-03) may appear on the ballot in Florida as an initiated constitutional amendment on November 3, 2020.
The measure would ban persons residing or entering the state from possessing military-style firearms. The measure would define military-style firearms as "any gun with a magazine capacity of more than seven rounds of ammunition or any weapon capable of firing in fully automatic mode, any weapon capable of being modified in any manner to fire in a fully automatic mode or any weapon classified as a sniper rifle."

Notice, it doesn't say "removable magazine". It doesn't say "center fired". Can a revolver's cylinder be construed as a magazine? If so my Sentinel 922 is a military-style firearm?
And what exactly is the classification parameters or definition of a sniper rifle?

The measure would also prohibit persons from possessing any firearm if the person had (a) been convicted of a felony; (b) been convicted of three or more misdemeanors; (c) his or her driver's license revoked for driving under the influence, reckless driving, or excessive speeding; (d) been subject to two or more domestic abuse emergency calls or investigations; (e) been diagnosed by a medical professional as psychologically disturbed; or (f) made any substantiated threat of violence against another person.

I can lose my gun rights for..... speeding? Three or more misdemeanors with no time frame? As in lifelong? If I spit on the sidewalk, play my stereo too loud and loitering I can't get a gun?

The measure would delete the existing language of Section 8(a) of Article I of the Florida Constitution, which provides people with the constitutional right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves.

This is the scariest part. What they are talking about deleting from the Florida Constitution is:
(a) The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Interesting that handguns are excluded.

Hand guns can be more easily defended as a means of self defense. That's the only reason LEO carry them.

Semi-auto rifles is a stretch, especially when they look like military weapons.

 

[GEM]

The long arms need to be defended as defense against tyranny. NRA research says that doesn’t sell. They also don’t want to touch it due to the controversial nature of who might be a potential tyrant.

 

[paulsj]

The long arms need to be defended as defense against tyranny. NRA research says that doesn’t sell. They also don’t want to touch it due to the controversial nature of who might be a potential tyrant.

It does' t work because the opposition is more afraid of private citizens with guns than police or military. Most thinking people also realize to oppose tyranny w/o being slaughtered one would need at least weapons like 9k333. Basically tyranny can not be opposed with what private citizens can own.

 

[paulsj]

It is time to stop being naive about definitions of assault weapons.

It has no strength in the arguments. What the bans will include are all magazine fed semi auto long arms.

Making clever quips about definitions or ranting about it’s not an assault rifle as it is not fully auto will not help in the well written ban proposals debate. In fact it is counterproductive.

My favorite "assault gun" is lever action chambered for one of the revolver cartridges. Correct me if I'm wrong but first such item was the Spencer carbine that showed up toward the end of US Civil War.

 

[Tommygunn]

It does' t work because the opposition is more afraid of private citizens with guns than police or military. Most thinking people also realize to oppose tyranny w/o being slaughtered one would need at least weapons like 9k333. Basically tyranny can not be opposed with what private citizens can own.

It can be, but it requires numbers, and a good grasp of asymmetric warfare, and guerrilla warfare, which includes the use of small weapons to acquire big weapons ... and other concepts.

 

[P5 Guy]

Seven round magazine, well there goes ,my M1 Garand.
Weren't Colt Peacemakers once a military sidearm?

 

[Rule3]

So I guess there must be two AWB ballots.

I found this one first:

https://ballotpedia.org/Florida_Ban...ions_for_Firearm_Possession_Initiative_(2020)

It’s basically a ban on magazines over 7 rounds along with firearms capable of firing in “fully automatic mode” and “sniper rifles” (I imagine 50 bmg rifles is what they are getting at here). Hopefully the form 4 on my second machine gun clears before this thing passes!

And I also see this petition:

https://bawnfl.org/banassaultweaponsnowpetition.pdf

It looks current. The source web sight looks up to date. Ban on mags over 10 rounds for rifles or shotguns. Does not apply to handguns. No registration of magazines but you must register assault rifles. Not sure about handing guns down through the generations. I guess this is the grandfathering part under limitations section:

“d) If a person had lawful possession of an assault weapon prior to the effective date of this subsection, the person's possession of that assault weapon is not unlawful (1) during the first year after the effective date of this subsection, or (2) after the person has registered with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement or a successor agency, within one year of the effective date of this subsection, by providing a sworn or attested statement, that the weapon was lawfully in his or her possession prior to the effective date of this subsection and by identifying the weapon by make, model, and serial number. The agency must provide and the person must retain proof of registration in order for possession to remain lawful under this subsection. Registration records shall be available on a permanent basis to local, state and federal law enforcement agencies for valid law enforcement purposes but shall otherwise be confidential.”

The above is confusing. Can someone break this down for me?

Interesting that handguns are excluded. It seems like we are at a point where CCW freedoms are ever expanding across the country but at the same time in these same states owning semi auto rifles with standard cap mags is coming to an end.

penalties for violation is a 3rd degree felony. Not sure what that is but it sounds pretty serious.

As for this being constitutional I don’t see why it wouldn’t be. The constitution itself is being modified after all. Sure we have 6:1 conservative to liberal justices on the Supreme Court but this is a simple modification of our constitution. I hate having such an easily amendable constitution.

Dan

Gee I wonder what the whole "registration" part has to do with preventing future "mass shootings"

It is just a way for them to eventually confiscate them, if they know where all of them are located.

Most lawful owners do not commit crimes. Even if they were to do so, registration does not stop anyone!!

 

[paulsj]

It can be, but it requires numbers, and a good grasp of asymmetric warfare, and guerrilla warfare, which includes the use of small weapons to acquire big weapons ... and other concepts.

Experience in the East suggest two ways in dealing with insurgency. Stalin would eliminate local support for rebels through population resetlement while Germans burned entire villages along with their inhabitants. When Bolsheviks wanted to eliminate Kulaks from Ukraine they took food away so they could starve to death. To eliminate future problems in Ukraine after "liberation" Stalin forced men into Soviet military with bricks or stones as weapon replacing rifle or handgun. As you can imagine losses in those units during assaults were close to 100%.

 

[paulsj]

Seven round magazine, well there goes ,my M1 Garand.
Weren't Colt Peacemakers once a military sidearm?

Yes muskets (smoothbore front-loaders) were once military firearms.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

It can be, but it requires numbers, and a good grasp of asymmetric warfare, and guerrilla warfare, which includes the use of small weapons to acquire big weapons ... and other concepts.

And most likely support from a big, sympathetic chunk of the regular military.

 

[paulsj]

And most likely support from a big, sympathetic chunk of the regular military.

That would be the only thing preventing elimination of partisant army.

 

[AlexanderA]

“d) If a person had lawful possession of an assault weapon prior to the effective date of this subsection, the person's possession of that assault weapon is not unlawful (1) during the first year after the effective date of this subsection, or (2) after the person has registered with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement or a successor agency, within one year of the effective date of this subsection, by providing a sworn or attested statement, that the weapon was lawfully in his or her possession prior to the effective date of this subsection and by identifying the weapon by make, model, and serial number. The agency must provide and the person must retain proof of registration in order for possession to remain lawful under this subsection. Registration records shall be available on a permanent basis to local, state and federal law enforcement agencies for valid law enforcement purposes but shall otherwise be confidential.”

The above is confusing. Can someone break this down for me?

This describes grandfathering for the person currently in possession (provided he registers the weapon within one year after enactment). It does not appear that it would be subsequently transferable, even to heirs upon death.

If this is adequately pointed out, overreaching like this could doom the proposal. What this really is, is slow-motion confiscation.

 

[reddog81]

Seven round magazine, well there goes ,my M1 Garand.
Weren't Colt Peacemakers once a military sidearm?

The problem is that pretty much every gun made today was in some way, shape or form derived from a military style firearm. The 1911 was the longest serving sidearm in history. The bolt action M1903 was used during both World Wars. 6 shot revolvers were used by the military for over 100 years.

How do they define Sniper Rifle? Probably anything that's not a semi-auto...

 

[FlSwampRat]

.... military style firearm.

That's the part that really gets me.... "style". All about form, nothing about function.
In 1973 I ordered my first new car, a Ford Maverick. There were two versions, both came standard with a 6 cylinder engine. There was the regular Maverick and then the jazzy Grabber version, difference being paint and a different hood. The Grabber cost more for insurance, because it was racier styled. Mine had a 302 Boss motor in it, a race tuned suspension, yet mine was cheaper for insurance. Go figure.

How do they define Sniper Rifle? Probably anything that's not a semi-auto...

Scoped with a bipod. And black.

 

[shafter]

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/pol...0190610-6ractebx4jbmlcehsgnff66q6e-story.html

Here we go. More nonsense from the antis.
The sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different outcome. Ban this, ban that to end 'gun' violence and still the violence continues. Isn't it time to try another tactic? You know since the gun banning tact is NOT working to quell the violent tendencies of the lawless?

It's only insanity if ending violence was the actual solution they are looking for. If stripping away freedom is the solution they want then what they're trying to do makes perfect sense.

 

[Tommygunn]

Experience in the East suggest two ways in dealing with insurgency. Stalin would eliminate local support for rebels through population resetlement while Germans burned entire villages along with their inhabitants. When Bolsheviks wanted to eliminate Kulaks from Ukraine they took food away so they could starve to death. To eliminate future problems in Ukraine after "liberation" Stalin forced men into Soviet military with bricks or stones as weapon replacing rifle or handgun. As you can imagine losses in those units during assaults were close to 100%.

No one knows how a "revolutionary war 2.0" or "civil war 2.0" would play out in America ---- and please DO NOT BELIEVE I AM ACHING TO FIND OUT!!! ----- but I have to wonder how ruthless the govt. would be willing to be. I'm not sure the European experience provides an accurate comparison. Europeans seem to be more willing to accept top down control (be it benign or malignant) than a large portion of Americans.

So far as our freedom is concerned, I worry more about couch potato syndrome than a lot of other factors. I'm not sure the military would be very willing to make war on fellow citizens .... otoh, I have to believe it's possible if the govt. demonized the revolutionaries successfully, and if the revs. were stupid, it might not be hard to do that.

 

[Tommygunn]

And most likely support from a big, sympathetic chunk of the regular military.

We can hope. I think it depends on how clear the matter is from a Constitutional point. Unfortunatly, one thing you can count on in any type of war or uprising is a huge, gnarly mess and political confusion and conflated and demonized motives.

 

[JTHunter]

They're so misconstruing and misquoting the Constitution that they're coming up with this:
“'We have a gun Autobahn right now,' said Christine Leinonen, whose son, Drew, was killed at Pulse (Nightclub).
'The Second Amendment says guns should be well regulated. And we know that by banning assault weapons, that’s not going to solve every gun problem in America, but it’s a piece of the puzzle, Leinonen" added.

Reading some of the comments put forth by Christine Leinonen, one of the Pulse victims' mother, “The Second Amendment says guns should be well regulated. And we know that by banning assault weapons, that’s not going to solve every gun problem in America, but it’s a piece of the puzzle," and, 'You should've had security, you didn't have a cop at that front door. If you'd had a cop at that front door, my son wouldn't have been dead,' once again proves the flaw of the anti's reasoning. There has to be someone to blame, and it is almost never the perpetrator. Perpetrator shot or incarcerated, the victims always want to blame someone who didn't get punished yet.

You need to re-read the Second Amendment. It does NOT state that "guns should be well regulated" - it says that THE MILITIA should be well regulated. And, according to a 30 year old dictionary "regulated" is defined as "to control, direct, or govern according to rule, principle or system". Guns have nothing to do with the Second other than their possession and ownership by "the People".

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

And as for Coal Train's post #16 about the Ruger 10/22 being an "assault rifle" by that fairly accurate definition, Ill-ANNOY is going even further "off the rails" by calling any firearm that can accept a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds an "assault weapon". I have not heard if they are planning on trying to include handguns (like the Glocks, etc.) that hold more than 10 rounds in that "description".

 

[FlSwampRat]

You need to re-read the Second Amendment.

Thanks, I'm good. If you carefully read the part of my post you quoted you'll find the pertinent part is:
They're so misconstruing and misquoting the Constitution that they're coming up with this:
"The Second Amendment says guns should be well regulated. And we know that by banning assault weapons, that’s not going to solve every gun problem in America, but it’s a piece of the puzzle", Leinonen added.

That's a quote from the article my post was referencing, not my words. Whoever Leinonen is, she needs to re-read it.

 

[JTHunter]

Thanks, I'm good. If you carefully read the part of my post you quoted you'll find the pertinent part is:
They're so misconstruing and misquoting the Constitution that they're coming up with this:
"The Second Amendment says guns should be well regulated. And we know that by banning assault weapons, that’s not going to solve every gun problem in America, but it’s a piece of the puzzle", Leinonen added.

That's a quote from the article my post was referencing, not words. Whoever Leinonen is, she needs to re-read it.

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[P5 Guy]

The Brookline MA abortion clinic shooter used a 10/22 with a folding stock.

 

[badkarmamib]

@JTHunter

Thanks, I'm good. If you carefully read the part of my post you quoted you'll find the pertinent part is:

Same here. I was quoting a victim in the post you referenced. Also, if we are going with context, at the time the 2A was written, "well-regulated" meant "well-equipped". And
"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." - George Mason

 

[paulsj]

No one knows how a "revolutionary war 2.0" or "civil war 2.0" would play out in America ---- and please DO NOT BELIEVE I AM ACHING TO FIND OUT!!! ----- but I have to wonder how ruthless the govt. would be willing to be. I'm not sure the European experience provides an accurate comparison. Europeans seem to be more willing to accept top down control (be it benign or malignant) than a large portion of Americans.

So far as our freedom is concerned, I worry more about couch potato syndrome than a lot of other factors. I'm not sure the military would be very willing to make war on fellow citizens .... otoh, I have to believe it's possible if the govt. demonized the revolutionaries successfully, and if the revs. were stupid, it might not be hard to do that.

The liberal left regardless of cause is better funded, better organized, more numerous at protests and mass demonstrations. They also seem to attract supporters of diffetent races and ethnicities. No worries about "couch potatoe" syndrome. I do think these characteristics will continue to benefit their causes.

 

[FlSwampRat]

@JTHunterAnd "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." - George Mason

You have to bear in mind, some of the current House members think the 22nd amendment was passed so that FDR couldn't be re-elected, even though it was passed by Congress two years after he died. I think death precludes being re-elected. At least in most places.