Florida: Student arrested for cutting food with knife

[joab]

The girl knowingly brought what she knew or should have known to be contraband onto campus in violation of signed for school policy and codified sate law

Do you disagree?

 

[Old Fuff]

In each of the cited cases, the circumstances and intent should be considered, and whatever action taken based on these factors.

Lets say an individual is stopped for speeding and the officer discovers that the driver is transporting a seriously injured person to a nearby hospital

What should the officer do? If the driver is cited what should the court do? Would it be better to obey the speed limit even if doing so might cost someone their life? Zero Tolerance applied here would say "yes"

Would that be right or wrong?

 

[joab]

Is cutting her meat with a knife instead of a spoon a matter of medical necessity?

Doe the good of a clean knife cut over a spoon smush cut mitigate the violation of the law?

 

[Shadowangel]

Ridiculous. I'm going to have a kid in the next few years, and this stuff really bothers me. How do you teach your child to ignore the individualism-crushing effects of school, but retain the knowledge? How can I tell my kid that guns are fine and the teachers are wrong, then expect him/her to listen to other things the teacher says? Very frustrating.

 

[Mannix]

Ok, here's what SHOULD have happened, had the staff had any common sense:



Girl sits quietly cutting her food with steak knife.

Staff member sees it.

Staff member comes up to the girl and calmly tells her that it's against the rules, and takes the knife from her(while trying not making a scene).

Staff member brings it to the principle.

The principle calls her parents and asks to have a little chat face to face.

At said meeting, the principle goes over the rules with the parents(calmly), brings up that it isn't the first time, and asks them to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Parents have a little talk with the kid at home about why she shouldn't bring knives to school.

Everyone gets over it and moves on with their lives.



Now WHY can't people just do what makes sense, instead of being all reactionary about it. Jesus, it's a 10 year old, kids are stupid sometimes, and make mistakes. It's part of being a kid, you make a mistake, you get corrected, you don't make the same mistake again. No harm, no foul, everyone gets over it.

 

[joab]

How do you teach your child to ignore the individualism-crushing effects of school, but retain the knowledge?

You teach her that there are different rules for different places, and it's going to be that way for the rest of her life just as it has been for all of our lives and our parents lives
You also teach her that her word is not to be taken lightly, if she signs or otherwise agree to certain conditions she is honor bound to live by those conditions

If you don't like the rules of a particular place don't go thee or work for change

In a perfect or even reasonable world you would be right mannix
But we live in neither and schools do not even try to pretend that they are

These are not super secret or made up on the spot rules
They are conditions that were agreed to prior to the girl attending school

 

[Geno]

Mannix:

What you described precisely what the original ZT outline proposed to do. Spineless adminis"traitors" ended that practice. Fortunately, there are still some good administrators out there.

Doc2005

 

[AZRickD]

Joab,

The antis don't want "different rules for different places" no more than they just wanted to stop their activism with no-smoking sections in planes or restaurants. They want it all. They want these rules to apply in vastly more places than you would care to admit.

To ignore the logic of Doc's ZT Three Points (tm) an administrator would have to be both irrational and thuggish.

But that's really not the case, is it, given the true intentions of the arrogant, left-leaning administrator.

My primary point is that rationality is not the point of Zero-Tolerance policies. It is political. School administrators wish to control us through our children. Are guns your hobby? Better not allow your child to draw a picture of you in your IDPA match for art class. Of course, the child (and you) should have known that was against the rules, so it's off to the psychologist to make sure she (and you) are not a threat. The turmoil involved in that psychic rectal exam, they hope, might be another straw in the camel's back. Shooting and hunting are just too much of a hassle now with rules upon rules upon laws upon laws upon bad people with forms and clip boards who happen to be backed by anti-gun (and anti-liberty, generally) administrators, school board presidents, prosecutors, judges and voir dere dumb-downed juries.

 

[learn2shoot]

I disagree with Mannix...

Here is what actually should have happened...

1. Girl is cutting steak
2. Teacher/staff member see steak being cut; thus the knife is not a threat to those who are not the steak
3. Girl finishes steak; wipes off knife
4. Girl puts knife back in bag; goes home and puts in dish washer

 

[Deanimator]

I disagree with Mannix...

Here is what actually should have happened...

1. Girl is cutting steak
2. Teacher/staff member see steak being cut; thus the knife is not a threat to those who are not the steak
3. Girl finishes steak; wipes off knife
4. Girl puts knife back in bag; goes home and puts in dish washer

But how does that infantilize the population as a whole?

Actually, if you really want to have fun with this, DEMAND that a school administrator be available with an appropriate implement to cut the food of any student who demands it. Since knives are prohibited, insist that a soup ladle or whisk be used. Protest loudly, engage the media and threaten to sue if the school doesn't cut the students' food for them.

The best way to deal with an idiot is to treat them like one.

 

[Liko81]

The girl knowingly brought what she knew or should have known to be contraband onto campus in violation of signed for school policy and codified sate law

Do you disagree?

No. Nobody disagrees that the child broke a written law. However, the law is unjust and should be repealed or rethought. "Zero Tolerance" policies do not take into account intent or degree of infraction. A similar case involved a child building their own PB&J and being suspended for the plastic knife that the mother packed in the lunchbox. No appeal, no consideration of circumstances; the child is sent home for two days.

A knife is a tool; what makes it a "weapon" is intended use. This can be inferred from design, potential for misuse, etc. This was a steak knife; I would agree that a steak knife's meat-cutting design translates very well to cutting living flesh as well as dead and barbecued flesh. However, the girl was not using it to harm someone, had no intention of harming anyone, and the knife is easily seen as being intended as a culinary tool and NOT a weapon. There is no reason to arrest a schoolchild for something like this. It's unjust and a mockery of the intent of the law.

 

[Deanimator]

Is cutting her meat with a knife instead of a spoon a matter of medical necessity?

Is her eating solid food instead of Insure a matter of medical necessity?

 

[Deanimator]

A knife is a tool; what makes it a "weapon" is intended use.

I'll bet Hitler wrote Mein Kampf with a pen or pencil. School children shouldn't be allowed to have pens or pencils lest they write racist screeds that start genocidal wars. Zero tolerance!

 

[wbh]

(2)(a) A person shall not possess any firearm, electric weapon or device, destructive device, or other weapon, including a razor blade, box cutter, or knife, except as authorized in support of school-sanctioned activities, at a school-sponsored event or on the property of any school, school bus, or school bus stop

So when exactly did lunch stop being a "school-sanctioned activity"?

 

[Cosmoline]

The rules are in place...the rules were violated.

The rules are idiotic, drafted and enforced by a batch of dunderheads

 

[RustyShackelford]

Doc's posts/The actions of "other children"...

I don't think Doc understands my point, I'm not saying I would bring this young girl up on any formal charges under the conditions but in fairness, students should be well aware of WHY they are not allowed to bring small knives, butter knives, steak knives, Ginzu knives, etc. It's a safety/security issue.
To avoid the issue of other documented incidents where children KILLED other children with knives in the same area, is a bit crass.
As I posted before, school supervisors and or local LEOs should decide what actions are taken but if they have ZT rules or need to enforce policy then so be it. The safety and security of a public school should not take a back seat to someone's feelings.
Rusty

 

[joab]

So when exactly did lunch stop being a "school-sanctioned activity"?

Try reading it again, you skimmed over part of it

except as authorized

No. Nobody disagrees that the child broke a written law

Wasn't exactly the question, butI'll take what I can get here
She knowingly and repeatedly broke a written law
That is what she was arrested, not for cutting steak

However, the law is unjust and should be repealed or rethought

No weapons on campus is a bad law?

No appeal, no consideration of circumstances; the child is sent home for two days

.Wanna wager on what the wording in the school policy book was?

The antis don't want "different rules for different places"

Would that be the anti steak knife coalition?
Don't like the rules then don't use the facility or work to change the rules
Don't whine about this poor little girl sitting at home not knowing what she did wrong or try to twist the incident into something it was not

 

[Savage92]

These people are stupid, it's a f***ing steak knife, what about scissors, do they not allow those too, maybe they should not allow any to the school that are pointed on the end.

 

[AZRickD]

Joab asked, "No weapons in school is a bad law?"

I resubmit my thread from TFL where I ask members to give me there lawful carrying of guns in school stories.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62602&highlight=school

It went several pages.

Rick

 

[AZRickD]

I shamefully add this from another forum:

The Florida legislature modified the wording of the "weapons" statutes (Chapter 790) to further define a knife. This was because some criminals beat concealed weapon charges for carrying meat cleavers and the like. The intent was not to turn an ordinary culinary tool into a classified weapon.

This was changed during the 2005/2006 legislative session and the new "extended" definition of knife to not include a common table knife or a plastic knife. This was more than likely due to some unpopular cases in 2004 on which the 4th District Court of Appeals overturned in 2007 even!

So the history of the law is that this was a knee jerk political response to the police being unable to prosecute or arrest someone for carrying a common table utensil! In the end, it all comes down to the purpose of the "weapon" Otherwise, I need to get rid of all my steak knives in my home. (I have a CWFL, so I guess I don't have to.)

So, is it just easy to say that she should have known it is a weapon... or, did she and her parents think it was a utensil!!! It is like saying that the little league baseball player knew his bat was a weapon, when he brought it to school to play baseball.

Let me help this thread out by offering some actual (read... real) case law about this topic...

Under the undisputed facts, the steak knife may be a dirk, or an innocent household item. But that determination is one for the finder of fact based on a consideration of the circumstances, for example, the manner in which it was carried, how [accessible] it was to the accused, its purpose, or the accused's motive for carrying it, and its ability to cause harm to another.

Reference: Walthour, 876 So. 2d at 597
also see...
Reference: Coultas v. State, —So.2d—, (4DCA 2007)

 

[joab]

I resubmit my thread from TFL where I ask members to give me there lawful carrying of guns in school stories.

Your point

We no longer live in those times

There were many things done in those days that can not be done these days

These threads invariably bring out posts proclaiming that when guns were allowed in schools there were no shootings

What they never seem to grasp is that if there were no school shootings and/or we had not suffered the social decline that we have experienced over the last couple or so decades there might still be guns allowed in schools

 

[Geno]

joab said:

What they never seem to grasp is that if there were no school shootings and/or we had not suffered the social decline that we have experienced over the last couple or so decades there might still be guns allowed in schools

Until VT, the worst mass murder in a school was in Michigan...by bombing. One of the school custodians, who also was the School Board President (seriously), went in and rigged the dynamite through out the school. The year you ask??? I seem to recall in the 1929 range.

Too bad we didn't have ZT then, huh?

Doc2005

 

[AZRickD]

Joab,

There is no evidence that the girl did anything "knowlingly." Did she know what Florida law says about eating utensils? Did she read up on case law? Does the fact that she *openly* used her steak knife numerous times previously without being accosted by two lunch room attendants lead her to conclude that it was okay?

Additionally, I don't see "the times" as being different, other than what political philosophy is holding sway. And if "the times" were exactly the same, the administrators/NEA members wouldn't care. They're Kool-Aid drinkers. True believers in the Nanny State.

That, I think, is my point. This is political. It is about power. Nothing more.

Frankly, if the cross-post citing Florida legal history is accurate, this thread is over.

Not Guilty.

Rick

 

[Geno]

AZRickD:

I can't believe people are not up in arms about the child being talked to by police. That was a massive legal violation. The parents must give permission, or a judge must sign a warrant. Neither happened.

In the end, heads will roll, in the school and possibly against the PD. Why? Because the people who broke the law in the Florida 10-year-old's case, were the school employees and the police.

Doc2005

 

[zxcvbob]

Sorry, Doc. Nothing will happen. The school and the PD will claim that the principal gave consent, acting in loco parentis. Ultimately everything will be covered up "to protect the privacy of the student." The best outcome will be for the D.A. (or whoever decides juvenile cases) to refuse to prosecute.

Florida is mighty F'ed up (can I say "F"?) regarding child protection. I can easily see them putting her in foster care until she turns 18.

BTW, I know that in loco parentis requires the actions taken must be in the best interest of the child -- but the courts usually come down on the side of the school administrators when there's a conflict of interest (see New Jersey v. T. L. O.)