FMJ just fine out of a rifle for defense?

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Be a little bit careful.

ARs are great HD guns when using correct ammo. The best option (I think) is a dedicated load like Hornady TAP ammo. Something like say, 55 gr fmj is probably not terrible, but if someone reading this really doesn't know the difference between various military loads, and just thinks that it's all the same, might grab some steel-core M855 ammo and assume that it is unlikely to overpenetrate is making a big mistake. It will shred the target and probably the next house as well.
 
If your worried about the rounds hitting the neighbors than you need to use frangible's, or bird shot. Something that won't slice through sheet rock and plywood and keep going into the next house.


If you live in an area where thats not a concern than anything will do.
 
If your worried about the rounds hitting the neighbors than you need to use frangible's, or bird shot. Something that won't slice through sheet rock and plywood and keep going into the next house.
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Or, know what your talking about. ;)
 
I dont think so, at close range a fmj is more likely to go through someone. If you want home defense, get a 12gauge with some 3" turkey loads.
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Those turkey loads will be good for the zombie turkey invasion right?

If everyone looks at the facts, any round that will get the job done and get it done right will most likely over-penetrate standard walls. If you can't live with the thought that in fear of the life and your familys life that your wall might get a hole punched thru it then don't use a gun ok? I value my life and that of my family, and will use what I have to protect us. I don't keep hollow points loaded in the rifles because they don't overpenetrate, I keep them loaded because they have maximum stopping power.
 
5.56mm 55 grain fmj travels at such a high speed, when it hits something it comes apart quickly. It'll still punch through a few walls. But it's not going to go through two walls (one with insulation) across the street into another house and kill someone. That would be unlikely. And if your luck is that bad, you'd probally be screwed no matter what weapon system you chose.

But it really depends. Usually really heavy rounds seem to penetrate houses and such better than zippy light rounds. But lighter 5.56 can zip through hard steel better than the slower heavy rounds.

Thats why the pros are getting dual material body armor. Instead of just steel or plastic, they're using a layer of plastic then a layer of steel in plates. the 5.56 rounds that are good at going through steel get stopped by plastic, and the hevy rounds that go through plastic easy, get stopped by steel. Best of both worlds.

If your really that scared of overpen, your choices are limited to anemic frangible rounds or 5.7x28mm from a Fn PS90. ss195 is specificly desighned to lose energy extremley quick on missed shots and yet possibly be as effective as 9mm.

Xm193 would be a good choice for an AR if your worried about overpen of soft building materials.
 
M855 or M193 will do a number on someone at close range. At close range it will most likely frament, you're good to go with either of these rounds for defense. They will penetrate less than pistol ball in many cases. The velocity and fragmentation makes them much more effective however. The M193 would be your best bet since it lacks the steel penetrator.
 
The typical house wall is 1/2 ply, 1/2 rock, with some R13 in between, and a bit of sidding on the outside. As the link shows its hardly much of a bullet stop.
 
M855 [fragments], yup, I'm serious. It works. I know this first hand.
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Do huh? M855...fragment? You do realize that is specifically designed to penetrate hard stuff...right? :scrutiny:

It breaks in half at the cannelure...sometimes...but the steel core just keeps on going.
 
I was watching the Outdoor channel last night. A tactical defense program. Can't remember which one. They were talking about people hiding behind objects in their house as protection. Possibly even the bad guy hiding and you wanting to shoot through the object.

They used a refrigerator and had gallon jugs of water in there to simulate items in the fridge. The obviously had the door off so you could see. On one side of the fridge, about 10 feet away, they had a foam target/backstop. On the other side of the refrigerator, they stood about 10-15 feet away. The shot 9mm, 38spl, 40sw, .223, and 12 gauge.

9mm: Hollow Point: Went through left side; through water jug; out the right side; and through the foam target to the back stop.

38spl: Same thing

40sw: Same thing

.223: FMJ went through the same as above, but they lined up 2 water jugs. So it went through the left side; 2 water jugs; out the right side; through the foam target to the backstop. HOWEVER: When they used TAP ammo in the .223, it went through the left side; through 2 water jugs; and then embedded into the right side of the refrigerator and never exited the fridge.

12 gauge: Didn't penetrate the refrigerator with 7 1/2 bird shot at all. 00 buck went through it all. ALL Pellets. Just like the 9mm above, but obviously multiple pellets.

So; when someone tells me that a .223 won't go through sheet rock because it's to small, too light, and too fast; and that it shreds apart, I won't buy it. I saw first hand a .223 fmj go all the way through a refrigerator, including simulated milk and juice bottles inside. And it still would have penetrated someone on the other side of the wall. Obviously the demonstration also concentrated on energy. They were showing a person on the other side. Most of those round going through the fridge probably wouldn't have been lethal to a person another 30 feet away. But if a 9mm hollow point as well as a .223 can go through a refrigerator and hit a person on the other side; I'm sure it can make it through sheet rock. Assuming it doesn't hit a wood stud.
 
Yes, M855 does break apart and fragment, not as well as M193 but it does perform as mentioned. I'm not one to go into detail, but I've used it and it worked. And yes, the steel core keeps on going. The rest breaks apart. Dead men can testify, if they could talk that is.

Maverick223, have you used it in combat? Trust me, the stuff gets the job done.
 
CA2005 said:
Yes, M855 does break apart and fragment, not as well as M193 but it does perform as mentioned. I'm not one to go into detail, but I've used it and it worked. And yes, the steel core keeps on going. The rest breaks apart. Dead men can testify, if they could talk that is.

Maverick223, have you used it in combat? Trust me, the stuff gets the job done.
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Yes it can, it doesn't always, yes I've used it in combat, look for the "British complain about the 5.56mm" thread in general discussion so I don't need to repeat myself, have you?

I can even tell you why it fragments and why at the cannelure (Spitzer tip induces yaw, which provides shear force on the bullet, and it fragments are the weakest point), it's also velocity dependent, and unfortunately using M855 in a home defense situation in most cases is phenomenally stupid. It will leave your house never to return when you miss, and you will miss.

Average American homes with their proximity and construction could lead to that miss landing in your neighbors living room if you're lucky. If you're not the neighbors might have a loss in the family while you're shooting the crap out of your place. Even a 9mm might wind up doing the same, but the M855 is a serious round 3100 fps and 1303 ft/lbs force. As compared with say a regular 9mm (140gr) or 45 (200gr) of 309 ft/lbs and 518 ft/lbs force. The little green pill has more than twice the energy of a 45 and has a steel penetrator in it which is something that neither the 9mm nor the 45 does.

As I posted before go look at the Box O' Truth who were using XM193 not M855 nine inches of pine through and through from the XM193 (not Mil grade, no penetrator, and 55gr not 62 gr), M855 was developed and tested to penetrate a steel pot helmet 1/8" at 600 yards from a 20" barrel. Are you reading me...?
 
A couple of points:

1. The steel penetrator of an M855 round weighs 4.7gr. It lacks much momentum to penetrate too far on its own (i.e. after it separates from the bullet due to fragmentation IF that happens). The only reason it exists is because it allows the M855 to penetrate a steel M1 helmet at 600m and that was a requirement (M193 could only do it reliably at 550m IIRC).

2. Because of its more complex construction (jacket, penetrator, lead) and the fact that fragmentation is not one of the design characteristics, performance varies from lot to lot based on jacket thickness and other characteristics. One lot of M855 might fragment just fine. The next lot might not fragment even after yawing.

3. Both M193 and M855 need about 2,700fps velocity to fragment reliably and may fragment as slow as 2,500fps. With shorter barrels, you are starting out close to the velocity floor for both rounds.

4. Even under ideal conditions (good construction, sufficient velocity), both M193 and M855 will fail to yaw or yaw too late approximately 25% of the time according to Fackler. If this happens, the round will penetrate very well.

5. Out of all the rounds out there, M193 and M855 are the most susceptible to the fleet yaw phenomenon (meaning it yaws in this rifle; but not in that one, for reasons still not well understood).

Finally, not all 55gr FMJ ammo behaves like M193, and not all 62gr FMJ ammo behaves like M855. For example, the Radway Green SS109 62gr FMJ has a thicker jacket and is less likely to fragment. Swiss GP90 62gr also has the thick, non-fragmenting jacket. Wolf 55gr FMJ also has a thick jacket and does not fragment.

If you are planning on relying on an FMJ round fragmenting to achieve your goals, I highly recommend you test it with the rifle you plan to use it in to verify that this is what will happen. If you can't test it, then the safe bet is to either stick with a round that doesn't rely on fragmentation to achieve its performance or to stick with a round that has a much higher level of consistency during production (open-tip match for example).
 
Thanks Bill. I watch the channel a lot and can't always remember which program is which. I still prefer to use soft point ammo in anything that goes beyond hand gun velocities. If a soft point can mushroom and stay in tack in a deer, then it will in a human. The only advantage of FMJ in a self defense rifle is cost. But I'm not the type of person that thinks I need a thousand rounds of ammo for a SHTF situation. Do I have a lot of ammo? Yes, but only a very small amount of it is for self defense. The majority is just for the fun of shooting, varmint, plinking, etc... Also, the reason for a large stock, is in case it become hard to come by or too expensive. And finally, as trading material or as an investment. I don't keep ammo like some people. I don't believe in zombies. I don't believe that if I have to protect my house/family from intruders, that I need a bunch of 30 round magazines in a rifle. There are some people who believe that they know scenarios where multiple 30 round magazines might be needed. They're wrong; but there's no way to convince them of that. They will rationalize their threat. Even during katrina type scenarios, that isn't needed. The only time I could imagine such a scenario being possible, would be if you're a small business owner and you are protecting your business against looters.

Anyway, I keep about 50 rounds, per rifle, of SP for rifle protection. I keep about 50 rounds, per pistol, of self defense ammo for protection. I keep about 100 rounds of mixed 00 and 4 buck for protection. After that, I usually maintain a minimum of 500 rounds of ammo per gun. It's for plinking, hunting, fun, or when the supply becomes a shortage. And as I use it for shooting, I restock when possible. And if I have to use FMJ .223 because there is so zombie threat, then I figure it will work. Not as good as SP, but it will work.
 
Maverick223, have you used it in combat? Trust me, the stuff gets the job done.
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Is combat experience now a prerequisite to understanding bullet mechanics and terminal ballistics?
 
Is combat experience now a prerequisite to understanding bullet mechanics and terminal ballistics?
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Yup. At least, I have now seen it mentioned twice in the last few days. "No combat experience, butt out!" Horrible attitude.

Trust me, the stuff gets the job done.
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You were talking about the 62gr M855 round...trust me, it doesn't get the job done. Not out of every barrel length, not every lot, in every contact with a human medium it is not performing the same...so no, it is not getting the job done. Consistency in ammunition is key, especially in combat. Are there factors that increase/decrease it's effectiveness? Yes, but I shouldn't be handicapped because my issued ammunition type will not perform with the weapon I am currently issued. That...is a problem.

Maverick, you can sweet talk me about terminal ballistics and bullet mechanics all day, I learn a hell of a lot. :D
 
The typical house wall is 1/2 ply, 1/2 rock, with some R13 in between, and a bit of sidding on the outside. As the link shows its hardly much of a bullet stop.
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IF you stick with military FMJ as in that test, yes. Which there is absolutely no reason for civilians to do, IMO, as we are not limited to FMJ.

There are photos from another test floating around THR in which .223 JHP was tested against three wall mockups spaced at room distances. As I recall, 55gr .223 JHP was the least penetrative round tested, and some of the 55gr JHP loads actually fragmented in the first wall and failed to fully penetrate the second. That is less wall penetration than any 9mm JHP I am aware of. By comparison, 00 buckshot went through all three walls.
 
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