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For those who don't think Mosins are accurate..

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Cosmoline, Feb 20, 2006.

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  1. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Check out these results from the Talvisota match on the collector's forum:

    http://n36sx.wheelsup.org/WinterWarHtml.htm

    Look at the 91/30 scores and tell me those rifles are pipeplate shooters :D

    You should take your remchester and see how well you do with iron sights at 100 meters using those same targets.
     
  2. 1 old 0311

    1 old 0311 member

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    They also worked REAL well against the Germans:)

    Kevin
     
  3. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    Show me a M44 or M38 carbine that will shoot those scores and I'll eat it:neener:
     
  4. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    M-44's were out for this match because it was pre 1940 firearms only. But in other matches Polish M-44's have been among the most accurate Mosins, giving MOA groups.
     
  5. .45Guy

    .45Guy Member

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    I see the Carcanos have placed well. Always nice to see that:D
     
  6. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Come on. We all know he could never have made those shots with an old Eye-Talian rifle :D
     
  7. OldWolf

    OldWolf Member

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    I have a pair of M-28's that I am getting ready to shoot. I've had them for awhile but never got around to shooting them. :)
     
  8. .45Guy

    .45Guy Member

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    How exactly would one go about getting involved in said matches?
     
  9. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    These are just postal matches run through the Winter War reenacting group and the mosin nagant collectors forum.

    http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=1

    If you're lucky enough to live in an area where there are surplus rifle shooting matches, that's another way to get involved.
     
  10. 1 old 0311

    1 old 0311 member

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    Come on now. Most Italian rifles have never been fired......Just droped during surrender:evil:

    Kevin
     
  11. swingset

    swingset Member

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    Any rifle is capable of accuracy....and there have been some accurate Mosins. Certainly the Finns did what the Russians didn't bother to (cull the accuracy out of the design), and even the Ruskies got lucky once and a while. Big whoop.

    The problem is, that throughout the entire long history of their production, a whole lot of them shot like absolute CRAP. That's not up for debate. A lot of Mosins hurl the lead all over the place.

    Now, contrast that with the M96 Swede, the K-31, the 03 Springfield. Nearly everyone that was made was accurate. Amazing consistency even in their day.

    That's what people mean when they say the Mosin sucks. It's inconsistent.

    All that aside, having hosted many postal matches, I can attest to some serious cheating. I had a guy who claimed a 10-shot group of less than in inch out of a K98K (with mil. ammo no less)....which is science fiction given the sights/trigger/ammo. Another guy that consistently dominated our postal matches came to a shoot once and couldn't hit a full-sized IPSC target at 300 yards....all day long.
     
  12. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Most of the poor reputation comes from the fact that importers sell heaps of shot-out 91/30's with mixed parts. Couple that with the fact that most shooters never even bother to tighten the receiver bolts or check for stock impingment and you have the reason for many if not most of the pieplate shooters. I've been able to consistently turn cruddy shooting Mosins into solid performers by finding good handloads and checking a few points of the rifle.

    As far as cheating, this is a well established forum where most of the shooting was done in groups. Besides, claiming that the results are the product of cheating is the argument of someone who has lost. Reminds me of the Dems in 2000 or 2004 :neener:
     
  13. swingset

    swingset Member

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    Don't get your panties in a twist. All I meant was that you can't take postal match results as gospel.

    I have owned a huge number of Mosins, still do....from a Dragoon to an M27 and all the variations in between. Some are quite good shooters. Most are not.

    Them's the facts. Sorry.
     
  14. ghost squire

    ghost squire member

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    You've got no argument from me...

    Now I don't want to start a ????storm but its the same thing with the AK, innacurate, useless safety, fired a cartridge thats probably worse then the 5.56 in FMJ...

    Its because of its very crudeness that people think its so great. If you had to pay 1500 dollars for one you might not be so enthusiastic. For some reason people think its a marvel that Russians can make a gun, period, much less a reliable one, because of propaganda in the US.

    Guess what people in the 60's and 70's their fighters were probably as good as ours or better, and the cockpits were certainly often more luxurious and well made. This according to US fighter pilots that took a look inside.
     
  15. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I don't know anyone who owns all the variations other than maybe Karl-Heinz himself.

    Also, the fact that YOU could not get them to perform doesn't mean they were inherently flawed. You have to listen to your Mosin.
     
  16. swingset

    swingset Member

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    Look, jerky, I was generalizing...obviously I don't own every single variation but I own (or have owned) representative examples (most in excellent condition) of every model of Mosin. I can say the same about Enfields, Schmidt Rubins and I own quite a few Mausers and their derivatives. I'm not speaking out of my butt....and I've been shooting and building rifles for a long time, I know how to relieve stocks, accurize, bed and tailor handloads, thank you. I also shoot competively, and beside my house is my very own test range with a machine rest. I can effectively remove the human element when sussing out a rifle and it's accuracy.

    You seem to want to fight about it. Apparently your love for the Mosin is personal. If you think that over the course many years of sloppy Russian production (and yes, by most country's small arms manufacture it was sloppy) that Mosins are as accurate as K-31's, Swedes, Springfields, etc. you just keep on telling yourself that until you believe it.

    You've been listening to your Mosin too much, apparently. Maybe you should listen to some other rifles talk now and then. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    What I take issue with is your conclusion that most Mosin-Nagants are not good shooters. I don't disagree that they are not as good on average as a K-31 or Swedish Mauser, but they are better than you appear to believe. Based on my experience, they range across the board from poor to excellent depending on numerous factors. A matching Mosin in good condition, particularly a Finn, is a match for any military Mauser. The best are as good as a K-31 or Swede. In addition, I have yet to encounter a beater Mosin who's accuracy can't be substantially improved with some basic work from keeping the receiver screws tight to slugging the bore. It takes effort, but it can be done.

    I would also put the quality of the Russian arsenals against any in Europe and certainly any in the US. You seem to have written them off as second rate, as many others have done. This is a mistake.

    I don't want to fight about it. You are the one who jumped into the thread with an allegation that the postal match participants must have been cheating. You then told me not to "get my panties in a wad" when I took umbrage at that rather defamatory allegation. And now you've taken to calling me "jerky." Not the worst thing I've been called, for sure. But between your posts here and elsewhere, your dislike of Mosin-Nagants is well established.

    Personally, I have nothing against the other rifles you mentioned. Out of the box you will get better performance on average from a K-31 or a Swedish Mauser. My point is that Mosins are underrated because they tend to be a little more challenging to work with. Folks tend to get them as beaters and treat them as beaters, feeding them really horrible ball ammo made by chain smoking east europeans with ballpeen hammers. But I posit that underneath that beater there's a quality rifle still capable of solid if not outstanding performance.
     
  18. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    Many M38s were made under wartime conditions, give them a break will ya?

    My AK is, Accurate, Reliable, home to a useful safety and fires .30 caliber cartridge which destroys flesh. Its an excellent intermediate cartridge. You've merely shown us your ignorance of the AK's intended purpose.

    The AK was designed to kill capitalists out to a maximum range of 300 yards. At 100 yards the AK will put 30 rounds into a chest, infact it will put 3,000 rounds into a chest at 100 yards without cleaning or bother.

    AK sights are crude, and the Ammunition is no more or less effective than US .308 FMJ in the real world.


    Both my M38s will casually empty their magazine into a pieplate all day long, in my experience there just isnt alot've good ammo for them.
     
  19. ghost squire

    ghost squire member

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    I'm not going to get into a fight with the Commie Rifle Fanboy Club so forget it. :rolleyes:
     
  20. KaceCoyote

    KaceCoyote Member

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    Then dont pick fights, Rifle bigot.
     
  21. swingset

    swingset Member

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    I never said that. I said some are very good shooters, most are not. Most are combat accurate, some are pitiful. That's just the reality of the execution of a gun made for conscripts and to survive combat. It's not a match gun, it's not made like the Ross or a Persian Mauser. It's a crude, reliable, indestructable gun I happen to admire greatly, but I don't believe for a second that on average a Mosin is as accurate as it's counterparts....precisely because they were not held to the stringent standards during manufacture that other rifles of its day were. I'm sorry if you don't agree with that.

    It is what it is, but most are not tack drivers....nor were they meant to be, or built to be.
     
  22. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    Most military rifles from the period weren't tack drivers. Most were made for conscripts to survive combat. The K-31's and high-end Swedes are the exception, not the rule. Most Mosin-Nagants *ARE* good shooters for military rifles. Most are also well-made. They are on par with other military rifles of the period including SMLE's and Mausers. Your low opinion of them is common, but not borne out by my experiences.
     
  23. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I had no idea the Czar was a communist!
     
  24. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    Maybe not considered accurate, but they are good enough.

    Sort of like the AK-47: they aren't exactly the most accurate military rifle but accuracy is traded off for simplicity, durability, cost of manufacture, ease of maintenance, and reliability. Sure there are some variants of he AK that are very accurate but the exception more or less proves the rule. The AK is good enough that probably 3/4 of the world is using it today.
     
  25. swingset

    swingset Member

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    I don't have a low opinion of them. I happen to think they are a fine combat arm, hence my large collection of them.

    All I have is a realistic opinion of the nature of the Russian arms industry, and the varying quality of Mosins as they came off the production line. Some were (as I've said how many times now?) very good. Others, and I know this hurts you deeply, sucked. Sucked BAD.

    You haven't had a bad Mosin. Good for you. Stop trying to convince me that they're all wonderful if I only love them enough. I've had close to 100 so far, and I know better.
     
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