Force on Force observations

[rwilson1]

Eye opening combatives class last night. I may have to rethink my EDC. Tonight’s class has been in the works for a while. We all had to get training versions of all of our EDC gear before we could run it. The instructor set up 10 self defense scenarios, 5 were ambush scenarios, 5 were escalation scenarios. We each ren through all then, then reviewed video and discussed how things went. The one irrefutable take away from the class is that if you don’t already have it in your hand you cannot use it as an initial defense against an ambush, and anything you can’t get into action very very quickly you probably won’t get to use at all. What has me considering changing my EDC, is that it seems like more defensive options may not be better.


In several incidents, students very obviously hesitated to choose an appropriate response. More than once, students attempted to use one tool, only to then try to change to another. As for me, I completely ignored some of the things that I carry, even when they would have been better in the situation than my response.


I have carried OC for years. I have received over 40 hours of training in its use (I am even on the dept. Of corrections training video in my state). OC would have been an ideal response in 2 of the escalation scenarios, but despite having an inert can, I used empty hand skills only in 1 and hand to hand with my folding knife in the other.


I never touched the training tactical pen I was carrying, even though we use them all the time in class, and I have been carrying one for over a year. I used several of the skills we have trained with the pen, but I used my unopened folding knife for them.


Real time decision making under stress is hard. The only tools I used were my handgun, flashlight and knife, and I never even opened the knife.


Overall I think I did pretty well and learned a lot, but if all 10 incidents had been real, I would have lots of stitches, 3 or 4 stab wounds, and a gunshot wound in my right bicep.

 

[herrwalther]

Having options is a good thing. There is a reason why police officers carry handguns as well as other less lethal means. For example, in my county a typical officer will carry OC spray, baton, Taser X26 or X2, a powerful flashlight, in addition to a handgun also usually having its own light. Many officers also carry the tactical pens. At work I carry a tactical pen, OC spray, and a Taser.

In my street wear it is normally a handgun, tactical pen, knife, and OC spray.

 

[scaatylobo]

Taught defensive tactics to officers in my police academy for 22 years.

Took the situation as I wanted to be as sharp as I could,and knew that only 2 THOUSAND repititions was the best way to learn and OWN any technique.

I am retired by 10 years,and still 'own' many of those abilitys still,cuffing,baton,arm bars etc.

And having many chances to use them all on the streets over 26 years on the job = I am a firm believer in 2 K of rep's to own any and all techniques.

Learned that first in Goju karate as a younger man.

 

[harrygunner]

Training can be quite an eye-opener.

IMO, the level of training separates those who think a primary in a pants pocket, or empty chamber carry is OK from those who carry as is standard at reputable training sessions.

Even then, the gun can seem a million miles away when the action starts.

I've been carrying and training with a 16" expandable baton (legal in my state for weapon permit holders) to complement my firearm. After considering the results of knife attacks, and my own Simunitions experience, I wanted to counter with a steel rod instead of flesh as I gained distance.

 

[hdwhit]

rwilson1 wrote:
The one irrefutable take away from the class is that if you don’t already have it in your hand you cannot use it as an initial defense against an ambush, and anything you can’t get into action very very quickly you probably won’t get to use at all.

Even though people laugh at me for it, this is why I still routinely carry a 25 ACP pistol. It fits in the palm of my hand and I can have it in my hand and my hand shoved in a jacket pocket without anyone knowing that the pistol is there, it is cocked, it is loaded, and the safety is off.

So far, in my life, it has never been necessary to fire the thing in anger; merely producing it when the assailant wasn't expecting my hand to come out of the pocket with a pistol has been enough to make them decide they want to be someplace else.

 

[JO JO]

totally agree , I have done the force on force , red man , Simunitions training in different scenarios while in the service and some leo training and one thing i always took away from it is one needs to be flexible and adaptive to that situation thats presented , I find it silly with all the comments folks have "with my edc and the proper shot placement" its a flawed opinion due to you will not be in a perfect 3 point stance with perfect sight alignment and have the time for perfect trigger control to shoot at a attacker that is willing to stand still.
force on force training is an eyeopener for sure and its great training IMHO

 

[fastbolt]

Eye opening combatives class last night. I may have to rethink my EDC.

... The instructor set up 10 self defense scenarios, 5 were ambush scenarios, 5 were escalation scenarios. We each ren through all then, then reviewed video and discussed how things went.

Sounds almost like a skills/tactics assessment evening, rather than a training/learning & practicing new skills sort of class. Not a bad thing if you're assessing participant skills, working to develop a class to address existing issues, teach new skills, etc. Might even be helpful in assessing equipment type, positioning on body, accessibility, etc.

"Ambush" scenarios, in order to serve a valuable purpose, need to be "winnable" using practical awareness and existing/acquired student abilities, or else they're just demoralizing. In practical terms, an "ambush" virtually always provides a significant advantage to the ambusher, not the victim of the ambush, too.

All good observations, and unsurprising. Even in LE and dedicated martial arts training, there's no shortage of students/practitioners who only practice at what they're best, or most comfortable, doing.

Now, add the "gear" factor to it, and people are unsurprisingly likely to opt for their "favorite" gear, or the gear that makes them feel the most confident if put under threat, even if it's not the most appropriate response to some situation. Take it a step further and let's think about a "gear head" person, who really favors some particular gear, and how he/she might try to shoehorn their preference for that gear into any or all responses to situations.

Real time decision making under stress is hard. The only tools I used were my handgun, flashlight and knife, and I never even opened the knife.

The first statement probably qualifies for the top prize in the Understatement of the Year Contest.

Also, take into consideration that some "tools" are probably only used in a secondary capacity for defensive roles, and their primary usage may end up having a LOT more time being hard-wired into our handling and use of them, in their primary use/roles (light sources, writing, etc) meaning we may lag in being able to be quickly employ them in a secondary role. Sure, OC (or the older CN Mace) is a specific purpose defensive tool, carried for that particular role, but even cops who have been trained in escalation and selection of use-of-force options have been known to make mistakes in selecting a chemical agent, when another tool would've been more effective and appropriate.

Then, when it comes to a continuum or matrix of use-of-force options - (at least in LE training circles, and there's disagreement to be found even within that context) - the decision-making process for the appropriate use of any particular piece of equipment may introduce its own potential for a "time lag", especially if there's a policy requirement hanging over your head. (In LE, stepping outside of an approved policy can put some increased distance between you and the protection of the normal qualified immunity.)

None of this really addresses the difference in training and knowledge standards between the average "reasonable person" among the lay public (or the difference in length of service time & training exposure in LE), either. TANSTAAFL.

In the real world, even if you'd "done everything right" there's still the very real possibility of suffering those sort of things when surviving an incident. Sometimes the "best case" may only mean not suffering serious, debilitating and permanent injuries or death.

Ever see someone who has been in fight where a blade was used by at least one person? Nasty.

I once survived an encounter where a guy attacked me with a large kitchen "boning" type fixed blade. I wasn't cut, but that was only because I was able to utilize 10 years of martial arts training and get the hell away from his blade, and gain a little distance (in an unfortunately enclosed space in a building) to better position myself and grab a couple exigent weapons. I was damned lucky he missed with his initial stabbing motion. The cop later reviewing the handy store video asked me how I'd managed to move so fast. Well, youth (late 20's), training, experience and a little adrenaline all helped, no doubt. If I'd remained stationary and tried to grab a concealed handgun, I'd have been wearing a knife hilt sticking out of my spleen or lung.

Sounds like you had fun. Hope you can use it as a learning experience to assess where you might benefit from some additional training and cautious, well structured practice (injury during training is counter-productive ). No down side to doing some reassessment of what you carry, where & how it's carried and how you're able to access it under stress and duress, too.

 

[strambo]

Sounds like a good class. I think once basic skills are learned, FoF training is the most important you can get...yet it is rarely offered outside LE/Mil circles and quite frankly, civilians don't seem to care.

I'm not surprised you didn't think to use all those other things. That is a lot of different EDC options for the mind under stress to sort through, "Hick's Law" and all that.

I've long maintained that at close quarters your first move should be to strike with what you have in your hand (likely empty) rather than try to get a tool while the other guy has nothing stopping them form stabbing/beating/shooting you until you get that tool out. You can access a tool as you strike them with the other hand, but immediately do something to mess up their OODA loop.

 

[Water Garden]

Classroom theory and book learning is great but FOF is the proving ground where you can iron out your fighting methodology and decided for yourself which previously learned techniques are practical, which ones merely look cool and which ones hinder more than help.