Quantcast

Form 4 Approved!

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by Havok7416, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Got my call today around 5pm for my Form 4. The ATF said they received it 6/11/2018, so that makes the total time 10 months, 8 days.
     
    CapnMac and Englishmn like this.
  2. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,070
    Location:
    East Texas
    Congratulations! Now I have form 4 envy. Come on 8/2!
     
  3. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Thanks. Last time I called they confirmed that the government shutdown did affect things by around a month.
     
  4. Gtscotty

    Gtscotty Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,944
    Location:
    Wyoming
    Congrats, I have one that went pending at the end of December, and another that I just bought this weekend. Loooooong wait ahead.

    What can was the F4 on?
     
  5. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Kentucky
    This was for a Saker ASR in .30-caliber.

    The wait is long for sure, but a Form 1 didn't interest me at all.
     
  6. Ryanxia

    Ryanxia Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2010
    Messages:
    4,541
    Location:
    'MURICA!
    Gratz!

    Most of my stuff is form 1's but my two form 4's I did before the 41F rule change to trusts, I waited 14 months total lol. It was almost a year for the form 4's and before I could START my form 4 I had to wait 9 weeks for the dealer to dealer form 3 because I bought them online. Oh well, I just focused on other projects, the time is going to pass one way or another, might as well give future you a suppressor haha.
     
  7. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Kentucky
    Two of my next three purchases will be dealer to dealer transfers, but at least all of them will be in a local shop where I can at least see them from time to time. The can that is the subject of this thread is in a shop over an hour and a half away because my local shop didn't handle this stuff before.
     
  8. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I got the Saker out to the range yesterday to test it out. I only had a handful of subsonic rounds made up, so I brought some supersonic ammo along. I tested the brake with the supersonic ammo then put the (heavy) Saker on the rifle.

    It was hard to tell how effective it really was being that I was shooting indoors with other shooters, but in between other shooters I could hear my bullets hitting the backstop. It was pretty cool. Now I need to find some time to load up a few thousand rounds!
     
  9. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Kentucky
    I got so carried away with the new toy that I forgot to update this. This can is quieter than I could have even hoped for! It's clearly hearing safe indoors which I was not expecting. I will try to post some video soon.
     
    jlmdlm likes this.
  10. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,615
    Location:
    Western PA
    It’s definitely not hearing safe, indoors or out. Prolonged exposure to any suppressed firearm will cause hearing damage, the question is just how many shots will it take. The term “hearing safe” is a disingenuous and misleading term the industry uses to refer to any silencer that’s under 140 dB. But you can get hearing damage from prolonged exposure to noises as low as 85 dB. A suppressed 300 Blackout shooting subsonics will be in the low 120 dB range, which is about the same dB level as a jackhammer and can damage hearing fairly quickly in most people.

    This is from the American Hearing Research Foundation:

    “Habitual exposure to noise above 85 dB will cause a gradual hearing loss in a significant number of individuals, and louder noises will accelerate this damage. [...] The highest permissible noise exposure for the unprotected ear is 115 dB for 15 minutes per day.”
     
  11. Havok7416
    • Contributing Member

    Havok7416 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,698
    Location:
    Kentucky
    With the impulse of a shot being measured somewhere in the millisecond range, I would have to be firing a fully-automatic weapon to get near those numbers in a day (and that's not something I am doing). I work in conditions that are far more likely to cause hearing damage than any firearm.
     
  12. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,615
    Location:
    Western PA
    Based on the guidelines, if the sound was constant it would take 7.5 minutes for a 120 dB sound to cause permanent hearing loss. Sure, the short duration of a suppressed gunshot means it would take a lot longer than that at most people’s shooting pace, but it’s still a sound that’s well within the range for causing permanent hearing damage.

    And remember, 120 dB is what a suppressed 300 BO shooting subsonic ammo often meters at in the optimal conditions (outdoors, ideal ammo, long barrel, etc.). Out of a semi-auto firearm indoors, the noise is going to be higher than 120 dB at the shooter’s ear, and just a 5 dB increase will shorten the exposure time by half.

    Sure, there are lots of things that can cause hearing damage. Heck, driving on the highway with your windows down can cause hearing damage. My point here is simply that the silencer industry’s claim of silencers being “hearing safe” is misleading and is medically incorrect.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  13. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2005
    Messages:
    16,261
    Location:
    Elbert County, CO
    Yes and no. 140 dB is the established level for instant damage from an impulse noise. But there are many other variables with acoustics. For one, frequency makes a difference; high SPL at a low frequency is less damaging, and less offensive to most people than a sharper tone at the same pressure. Another really important consideration is the attenuation; dBs attenuate by 6 for every doubling of distance. The waves may also be vectored, which is why guns with muzzle brakes sound so much louder to our ears than those with bare muzzles, even though the "uncorking" noise is the same (this is why my suppressors have a countersunk front cap). And, of course, reflection, refraction, diffraction. It's complicated, and unlike my uncle, I don't have a college education in acoustics to better explain it. What I do have is a very expensive sound meter that doesn't lie or have biased perception, and there are many noises which are higher than one would think, especially if the distance from source is closer than "normal".

    When it comes to metering suppressors, I do it at mil spec position for a comparative baseline, but the only number I really care about is at-ear levels. This is the part which is misleading in suppressor marketing. As you mentioned, it's often done under the most ideal conditions with tailored hosts and ammunition to achieve the lowest possible figure. SilencerCo is famous for this, and one should add about 5 dB to any figure they advertise for real-world results. At ear levels are really important with autoloaders, particularly gas operated or blowback. ARs are one of the qiuetest autoloading hosts, but even a perfectly tuned "system" is gonna produce at-ear levels between 135-140 dBA. Most gas operated rifles will have shooter's ear levels over 140 regardless of can, and straight blowback centerfire guns (PCCs, generally) can easily be over 140 at-ear, even if they're sub-130 at muzzle; my ultralight 9mm folding rifle, with a very lightweight bolt (high bolt velocity) meters 12 dB higher at ear than milspec with supersonic 115 gr. ball loads. In terms of the logarithmic dB, that's almost 20 times louder.

    On shooting indoors or otherwise near reflective surfaces, let your ears be the judge. Reflection tends to make a noise louder to our ears, even if the meter says it's not. .22 LR suppressed is one of the better examples, as the low pressure & low gas volume results in virtually no dBA change between open outdoors shooting and firing in pretty confined indoor spaces, but they seem much louder to us inside. When you move into larger rounds, there actually will be a measurable difference, which increases as the overpressure condition in the room increases. A 9mm may only pick up 1-2 dBA in a 12x12, 8' ceiling room, while a .338 Lapua could be 6-8 dBA louder in that space.

    My ears are generally offended by suppressed guns metering over about 135 dBA, though some of the cans with softer tones are still comfortable at a higher levels (suppressed .45 ACP metering ~136 bothers my ears, while my .375 RUM @ 137 dBA through my Accipiter does not). I let my ears tell me what's acceptable and what's not. If it's uncomfortable, I don't do it.

    Ultimately, yes, it's still best to use ear pro even with suppressors. But that's also true of everyday noises for many of us, so we have to make the call on whether or not it's worth the use of protective gear in a given situation.
     
    Theohazard likes this.
  14. Theohazard

    Theohazard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,615
    Location:
    Western PA
    Agreed. Just as I don’t put on ear pro when I decide to drive with my windows down, I don’t wear ear pro when I shoot my silencers outdoors unless I’m doing more than a few shots with a centerfire rifle.

    I don’t want @Havok7416 and others to misunderstand me and think I’m saying that you MUST wear hearing protection whenever you’re shooting suppressed. But the key is to know that there is a risk from over-exposure and therefore you should calculate that risk. When the silencer industry uses the term “hearing safe”, it strongly implies that there is no risk; it seems to indicate that any silencer that meters less than 140 dB can’t hurt your ears and is therefore “safe” to fire without hearing protection.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice