Fragmentation velocity for solid brass projos?

[watermonger]

Does anyone know what velocity range solid brass COPPER! projectiles would begin to fragment in?

 

[Project355]

I tend to think that the velocity to achieve that is not attainable in small arms

 

[entropy]

Depends on the target.

 

[Project355]

Is that fragment from impact or fragment due to to high velocity?

I don't know why I understood that at first to be asking about self-destructive fragmentation like shooting certain projectiles at greater than 3500 or 4000 feet per second.

 

[Thomasss]

US military tried doing it with .30.06 and they couldn't do it. Even with a special gun. They figured in would take more IMR 4350 powder to achieve that velocity than would fit in a 30,06 cartridge, so they built a "gun" to handle the required amount of propellent. The end result was that they couldn't get proper ignition of all that powder at once.

 

[Thomasss]

The military was trying to hit a 2.5 inch thick armor plate. In theory the military thought it could be achieved by exceeding 4500 ft./sec. but then they were not using a solid brass projectile. They used an alloy composed of brass and another mineral mixture of 70/30 to facilitate the fragmentation process.

 

[mdi]

I don't think solid brass would "fragment" but rather flatten out on impact with a hard barrier. Animal tissue? Zip right through. Fast enough to come apart in flight? Nope...

 

[watermonger]

Yeah I mean't fragment from hitting tissue/bone.

 

[DocRock]

Yeah I mean't fragment from hitting tissue/bone.

Not realistically achievable with small arms.

 

[watermonger]

I just realized I typed solid brass, but I actually meant solid copper... #DOH

 

[horsey300]

I just realized I typed solid brass, but I actually meant solid copper... #DOH

Still not likely, the machining process has come so far that the hollow points will still be unlikely to shatter, exceptions for the ones designed specifically to do so.

 

[DocRock]

I just realized I typed solid brass, but I actually meant solid copper... #DOH

Unless we are talking elephant, or frontal shots on Cape Buffalo, or other very large bovines, copper solids are unlikely to fragment. Very high velocity lightweight copper hollow points could shed petals, but the shanks will hang together.

 

[mjsdwash]

to be clear your talking mono bullets, not the sintered copper thats meant to fragment right?

 

[watermonger]

to be clear your talking mono bullets, not the sintered copper thats meant to fragment right?

Yes, flat nosed mono solids designed for deep penetrations. Could these rip themselves apart at 3500 - 4000 FPS?

 

[mjsdwash]

for solid, I doubt you could make it explode, copper is malleable and enough heat and pressure will turn squishy. I can't prove it, but I think a solid copper cylinder would get hot enough to melt before it got enough force to make it explode. . This is the principle that makes HEAT rounds work, though they use a bomb too. That said, you could certainly shape it to explode, if you really wanted to

 

[.38 Special]

I once turned some for the .228 Ackley. I used gilding metal, which should have been 95% copper and 5% zinc. I believe this is the alloy most commonly used for such bullets. They came out at just under 60 grains. I loaded them with enough IMR 3031 to get them to slightly more than 4100 FPS. That was abusive to the rifle and the brass, but the bullets didn't care at all. I doubt they can be driven fast enough in a small arm to cause them any troubles whatsoever, and in fact believe that, at least for terminal impact in flesh, they thrive on speed.

 

[Mr. Zorg]

There are some examples with petal shedding from monometal hunting rifle projectiles at this link, impact velocity in meters per second are listed along with the images of an unfired sectioned projectile as well as the recovered bits of the projectile. Not all the projectiles shown are monometal FWIW.

http://kjg-munition.de/Zielwirkung/Geschossbilder.htm

 

[mdi]

Yeah I mean't fragment from hitting tissue/bone.

What, exactly, did you mean? From hitting a solid/semi-solid object? Or coming apart in flight? For most of us "fragmenting" means to disintegrate, crumble, break into many small parts/pieces on impact with something. Jes wondering...

 

[Riomouse911]

Other than an expanding X-bullet type projectile shedding a petal or two under a high velocity/heavy bone impact as DocRock and Mr. Zorg stated, every recovered mono-solid designed for dangerous game that I have seen in person or in pictures looked like it could be wiped off, reloaded and fired again.

I’ve read accounts from game wardens in Africa that sometimes bush poachers will pull bullets and primers from small arms like 7.62x39 and use the powder and primers to reload recovered solids to poach heavy game with.

Stay safe.