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Freestate Project in trouble?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by twoblink, Sep 28, 2004.

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  1. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    Badnarik, the LP candidate is on 49 state ballots..

    Guess which state he's NOT on because they couldn't get 3000 signatures??

    New Hampshire..

    For the state that's suppose to be loaded with libertarians, this is the most pathetic thing I have ever seen..

    Someone will explain this to me, I'm sure.. because for a state I want to move to, this just like the 1800 calories in my Big Mac that makes me rethink my decision...
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2004
  2. Erich

    Erich Member

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    59 ballots?

    What year is this? :)
     
  3. twoblink

    twoblink Member

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    I meant on state ballots in 49 states..

    It's 2am....
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2004
  4. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    I lost interest when it became clear that the folks behind the project had decided on NH long before the results of the poll were in. The idea that a state as tightly controlled and over-governed as New Hampshire could be home to some Libertarian utopian community is absurd. You can't paint your fence in that state without approval from some village council or historic preservation officer. Yes the gun laws are good, but nothing else is. Everything is zoned and controlled, every piece of land comes with tons of CC&R's. Call that freedom, 'cause I don't :D
     
  5. Gordon Fink

    Gordon Fink Member

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    Don’t the libertarians have to move there first, before they can implement a more freedom-oriented government?

    ~G. Fink
     
  6. OF

    OF Member

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    Ahhh...now it makes sense. :confused: ;)

    Get some sleep brother.

    - Gabe
     
  7. Erich

    Erich Member

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    :) Night-night!
     
  8. Poodleshooter

    Poodleshooter Member

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    There also have to be enough of them to matter: http://presidentelect.org/e2000.html

    Reform, Libertarian and Constitution parties combined totals were around 1% of the popular vote in the 2000 presidential election or 1.039 million voters. New Hampshire had about 600,000 voters in 2000, who basically split about even Republican and Democrat with third parties running about 5% of the popular vote. The LP will need about 280,000 voters moving there in order to "take over" New Hampshire.
    How many LP members is the free state list up to now?
     
  9. goon

    goon Member

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    I was interested in the FSP at first and still feel that it is a hell of a good idea. The state they chose is what puts me off. IMO, even with their small numbers, they should have chosen a state that was better suited to the opinions that they held, and specifically tried to congregate in a few adjoining counties in said state.
    I have also become intrigued by the idea of trying to be more self sufficient. In the wake of things like the blizzards in the north and this year's hurricane season in Florida, it only makes sense to try and not depend completely on supermarkets and electricity.
    I have never been farther north than PA, but I can tell you that in the winter, PA is BLOODY COLD. New Hampshire can only be worse, and it undoubtedly stays colder longer. That is not a friendly environment for trying to be more self sufficient. The growing season is shorter, heating will require more oil, gas, wood, coal, whatever, and everyone will be buying, which will drive high prices even higher.
    I was on the FSP site for awhile, but I got to thinking.
    I know that they say something to the effect that "You can't let a little thing like cold weather talk you out of your committment to the FSP", but that is not a real world assessment.
    My "goal" of being somewhat self sufficient isn't compatible with the FSP, so I have to look elsewhere to try and acheive it.
    I was not signed up and committed to their project, so my decision is a moot point, but I think that some of thier members are going to reach that conclusion as well.
    I am sorry to hear that it isn't working as planned, but I am not really suprised by it.

    To get back to the point, if the reason for your moving to NH is only because the FSP is endorsing that state, you need to think it over real hard. I can sympathize with your feelings, but you may be better off to cut loose of it now and just move somewhere else that is flooded with gunowners and other civil liberties.

    As for me, Dixie is calling my name...
    :D
     
  10. sumpnz

    sumpnz Member

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    Ummm, last I checked we still had just 50 states in this fair and beautiful country. That makes it quite an accomplishment to get on the ballot in 59 states.
     
  11. 444

    444 Member

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    Aw, give the guy a break: he said it was 0200 when he was writing it.


    I must have missed out on this whole concept prior to about a month ago. Very interesting. I would love to read more about it. I first encountered this idea while reading Boston Tea Party's book Molon Labe. It is a novel, but IMO a good one. Of course everything goes the way I wish it would go in reality, which to me, makes it a good book. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_4/102-8340626-3016101?v=glance&s=books

    I also agree that New Hampshire was a poor choice. BTP makes a very strong case for Wyoming, assuming the numbers he uses are accurate and not just part of the novel.
     
  12. Zrex

    Zrex Member

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  13. jefnvk

    jefnvk Member

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    Good thing the UN is watching over the election this year :neener:
     
  14. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    I would love if the libertarians took over a state.....................and conservatives got another 48. The liberals can keep Taxachusetts and choke on it.
     
  15. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    Twoblink,

    I spoke with a few people in the LP and apparently they fulfilled the requisite number of signatures by well over 50% but they were told that it was submitted improperly and the application was dismissed. It seems that this is not necessarily due to a lack of LP supporters but rather some funny business behind closed doors:fire:
     
  16. Brett Bellmore

    Brett Bellmore Member

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    Pretty typical, I'm afraid; Every election the LP usually has to sue in several states to get on the ballot, when state officials decide to keep the party off illegally. As opposed, of course, to the Republicans and Democrats getting on the ballot even when they genuinely don't meet those requirements because somebody forgets to file a form on time.

    New Hampshire was a lousy choice, Wyoming or North Dakota would have been better for any number of reasons. But the whole idea foundered on a couple of problems: First, that getting libertarians to cooperate is like herding cats, and second, that if the project did succeed, the federal government would move in to crush it.
     
  17. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    The FSP was an interesting exercise, but their ultimate choice utterly baffled me. New Hampshire has good gun laws, but there's little else about it that would make it a libertarian paradise. It's still part of modern New England, where you need the approval of a town elder, the board of selectmen and a historic preservation committee to paint your fence. Nearly all proprety is heavy laden with CC&Rs and zoning is well established. Call that freedom, cause I don't. What land there is is far from cheap, and the job market is pretty miserable from all I hear. A mountain state would have been a better choice, or Alaska.

    Oh well. The notion of libertarians doing ANYTHING as a group may be a pipe dream. It's like herding cats.
     
  18. dustind

    dustind Member

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    Everything you just said is wrong. Every FSP vote was public, you can see for yourself. There were many long threads on NH vs WY and the facts pointed to NH. All of those threads are archived. Every argument BTP made in favor of WY was just a rehash of one side of the debate, and not a very good one at that because almost all of his points have perfect counterpoints. NH is currently one of the freest states in America. You do not need building permits to build most buildings on your property, much less to paint your fence. There is almost no zoning in NH, several parts of the state have absolutely none.

    As for the Badnarik not being on the ballet, there is a lawsuit over that. The Libertarians submitted many more signatures than needed.

    goon: You should look over the case for NH, I was originally in favor of WY, but NH is better.
    NH only has a few thousand activists total, many are Libertarians. Plus the Rs and Ds are significantly more pro freedom than almost any other state.

    Also note that the FSP is not a part of the Libertarian party. Half the members call themselves dems or repubs.

    101 reasons to move to NH, PDF format Edit: That is out of dtate, more members of the FSP have been elected and appointed since then.

    http://www.freestateproject.org/community/nh_info.php - go there for more info on NH.

    If anyone has any questions about the FSP feel free to ask me. You can PM me or e-mail me if you want.

    Leveraging the Spirit of the West in New Hampshire
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2004
  19. GhostRider-Nine

    GhostRider-Nine member

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    IMHO the Free State Project was DOA the minute they picked NH.
     
  20. dustind

    dustind Member

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    GhostRider-Nine: Why do you think NH is a bad choice?
     
  21. GhostRider-Nine

    GhostRider-Nine member

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    Well.....they could try. ;)
     
  22. dustind

    dustind Member

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    If anyone thinks that is the case. Isn't that reason enough to join?

    Edit: Govenor Benson is working with the FSP, as are over a hundred represenatives IIRC. The govenor and many legislators have signed on as friends of the FSP. Almost every pro freedom group in NH has joined with the FSP and its sister group www.nhliberty.org

    Edit again: http://www.state.nh.us/osp/ZBAHandbook/StateMap.html NH areas without zoning ordinances.
     
  23. GhostRider-Nine

    GhostRider-Nine member

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    Several things. A few are....the east coast is nowhere near as freedom loving or freedom concious as the west. And even if the FSP was to begin to succeed in NH, it would be far to easy for liberals in close by states to move and dilute the progress. Also, considering the population of NH, it would take thousands and thousands more freedom loving people to make a difference than it would in lets say Wyoming. And one last thing....there are MANY thousands of freedom loving and rugged folks out west that would not consider moving anywhere near some of the most regulated and government loving states there is out east....but they might consider moving to one central location, as long as it was in the west....and had a small enough population where they just MIGHT make a difference.
     
  24. 444

    444 Member

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    Without really knowing any of the details about this whole thing, it would seem obvious to me that Wyoming would be the better choice.
    The type of people who would go for something like this are already living in Wyoming.
    There is plenty of room. Real Estate is much more resonably priced. The bordering states are much more friendly to ideas such as this: Utah, Montana, Colorado, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Idaho sound a lot more close to the earth, indepenant thinking, and conservative than the Atlantic coast states.
     
  25. dustind

    dustind Member

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    You are right about land prices, but there is still lots of land in NH for about $1000 an acre. There are also places where there are no people around for miles.

    NH has resisted the influx of statists so far. It has also been a haven for freedom loving people. I seriously doubt anyone would move just to oppose our group. It does draw freedom loving people from its neighbors, and once it starts to get even more free. Only people who support or do not mind the project would move in.

    NH(with the exception of some democrats and the MMM) welcomed us with open arms, something I doubt any western states would do. Several cities in Vermont have voted to join NH due to taxes and regulations. This was done heavily with the support of the FSP.

    If there where more western freedom lovers they would have joined before the vote, and WY would have won. http://www.freestateproject.org/about/states_count.php shows membership by state. Note that no one can join from NH after the vote was cast, but it easily has the most sign ups per population. NH has 298, WY 17.

    NH also has one of the few citizen legislatures. 400 representatives in the House that get paid $100 a year.
     
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