Friend got harassed by the police for OC

[Catherine]

P.R.,

Bingo! Thank you.

Some people do not understand the concept of liberty or rights when it comes to FREE men and FREE women.

The basic concepts and foundations are there. All people have to do is USE it or lose it.

I believe that EVERYONE should open carry anywhere if that is their choice. (We still have those nasty restrictive laws on WHERE it is allowed though at this time.) It might nip this crapola in the bud. If you are in jail or in an insane asylum... not allowed until you get out and served your time or got 'healed'. If you are a FREE man or woman out in society... you are FREE to protect yourself, your loved ones, your property and/or your country against foreign and domestic enemies IF called upon.

We should all have an equal playing field in our basic RIGHT to self defense if we need it.

Our Founding Fathers weep.

Catherine

 

[BigBlock]

NO, I am NOT going to listen to somebody misstate the law, or even worse express his intention to BREAK it for five minutes or five seconds.

I don't know about your state, but Oregon has a specific statute that states you MUST submit to a "peace" (peace, LOL) officer even if they are knowingly breaking the law.

As totally, incomprehensibly stupid as that sounds, it's the law.

 

[Deanimator]

I don't know about your state, but Oregon has a specific statute that states you MUST submit to a "peace" (peace, LOL) officer even if they are knowingly breaking the law.

As totally, incomprehensibly stupid as that sounds, it's the law.

I'm going to MAKE that officer tell me I'm not free to leave, ON THE RECORD, in front of as many witnesses as possible.

I'm going to refuse consent to ANYTHING.

I'm going to demand a lawyer and REFUSE further comment without one present.

If he then chooses to falsely arrest me, I will EAGERLY submit to that false arrest, secure in the knowledge that by so doing, I have secured a SIGNED ADMISSION by the officer of his criminal and tortious acts committed against me. That's pure gold in court. I going to make sure that others have to endanger their careers, finances and freedom in order to cover for him. Let's see who's willing to fall on THEIR sword for a goof like that.

At that point, there's exactly ZERO possibility either of any resolution short of a civil suit or of an out of court settlement.

 

[Mainsail]

It’s somewhat ironic, perhaps hypocritical, that many of the people who swear they won’t give up their firearms to the government should the storm troopers come to get them don’t want to open carry because it’s too much of a hassle.

“You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers, or if you hassle me.”

 

[bnkrazy]

Interesting observation, Mainsail.

 

[tpaw]

Just curious. For all of you who have open carry states, have there been any incidents where a firearm has be ripped from a holster and stolen or even used on it's owner? We don't have OC in my state, only CC. If we were to get OC, I would feel very uncomfortable having my firearm displayed. It would make me feel that I would have to be on guard all the time just waiting for some jerk to run past me, grab my gun and keep going. It could even turn into a fad by a group of idiots, like those streakers at football games who run across the field nude.

 

[dalepres]

He didn't like that, pointing out his "15 years of law enforcement" experience on the matter.

Pretty typical. He's been violating your rights for so long he certainly knows more about them than you do.

Still, in general be respectful to the Police Officer. Respond "yes sir" or "no sir" to questions.

Are you kidding? You have absolutely got to be kidding. Yes, Sir? No, Sir? That's not respect, that's subservience. Perhaps it should be Yes, Master? I've had to delete a dozen potential responses to your post just to try to have any semblance of "high road" in my response. I am totally stunned that a free man would suggest that I, a 53 year old man, has to call some punk 21 year old kid Sir just because he has a badge and a gun.

Besides, LEOs don't automatically get respect, any more than anyone else does. Respect is earned. What LEOs do get, as should most people you interact with in life, is courtesy. That's it.

 

[JesseL]

tpaw, I've heard reference to one instance of an openly carried gun bieng snatched and used on its owner a decade or two ago in Phoenix (no hard reference). I think I heard about something similar in New Mexico (again no hard reference). And there was an incident of an open carrier in Virginia who was ambushed and robbed a year or two ago (I saw that one documented in reputable online news, but the story didn't completely pass the sniff test).

So there is at least anecdotal evidence of it happening, but it's extremely rare and certainly shows no indication of becoming a fad. In spite of the apparent level of intelligence of the populace today, most people don't seem that eager to play pranks on armed citizens.

 

[dalepres]

I have a question, how do you tell if the person with the oc is a good guy or a bad guy? Do they wear signs in the state? Just curious. Also what kind of advise did the officer give your friend?

Help me understand. Are you saying that everyone is a bad guy until proven otherwise? Some how, that just doesn't seem right - unless you feel that you're better than us or that us, as in "the people", are your enemy.

I don't know about your state, but Oregon has a specific statute that states you MUST submit to a "peace" (peace, LOL) officer even if they are knowingly breaking the law.

Do you know if that law has been tested in the state or federal supreme court? I am pretty sure that there have been rulings to the effect that an illegal or unconstitutional law does not have to be followed. That would apply to the cop knowingly giving illegal orders and to the law requiring a free man to follow those orders.

 

[kcshooter]

It’s somewhat ironic, perhaps hypocritical, that many of the people who swear they won’t give up their firearms to the government should the storm troopers come to get them don’t want to open carry because it’s too much of a hassle.

I have other reasons than just the hassle not to OC. I already said that. I also feel a concealed weapon has the potential to give me a edge in an incident. There are other reasons, but the hassle isn't my only one.

And for those who keep saying things like the statement above, I have just as much right to carry concealed as you do openly, so why the hell is it such an affront to you?

I've carried concealed for over a decade now, and have no plans on switching to OC just to get a reaction from everyone until it's considered acceptable.

My gun's under my shirt so now I'm giving up my rights? Please. Carry open if you want but don't give me any crap if I decide not to.

 

[ZeSpectre]

regardless of whether or not they should be hassleing someone for open carry, you're delusional if you think they won't.

Well, so far my experience tells me that there's only one way to change that...

 

[chris in va]

Wow, sorry. Didn't know it would garner so much attention.

Winchester.

And he would have CC, but left his wallet at home (with his permit and photo ID).

For all of you who have open carry states, have there been any incidents where a firearm has be ripped from a holster and stolen or even used on it's owner?

Can't say as I've heard anything here in VA. I do however know of a possibly thwarted robbery due to a man OC in a bank.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

there was an armed security guard robbed gun taken within last year in the hampton roads area

 

[ProficientRifleman]

Kcshooter said,

And for those who keep saying things like the statement above, I have just as much right to carry concealed as you do openly, so why the hell is it such an affront to you?

How you choose to carry your weapon isn't an affront to anyone here. I congratulate you for choosing to carry short-range defensive weaponry. That is a rational and logical choice.

You do NOT have a right to concealed carry...you have permission from the state.

Begging permission from the state to do what I have a natural right to do IS and affront to me. As it should be to all free men.

 

[BigBlock]

Do you know if that law has been tested in the state or federal supreme court? I am pretty sure that there have been rulings to the effect that an illegal or unconstitutional law does not have to be followed. That would apply to the cop knowingly giving illegal orders and to the law requiring a free man to follow those orders.

I have no idea if the law has been used. I just remember reading it in the codes and being very angry and wondering why the hell anyone would ever write or vote for that law. Unfortunately I believe there are similar laws in other states.



As for calling a cop "sir", no, I refuse to do that too. I am nice and respectful, but they are no better than I, and there fore, they are not a "sir". I am simply polite to them the way I would be to any random stranger I have to talk to. If I met the president I might call him sir...maybe.

 

[Halo]

I've never been a "sir and ma'am" person, I simply can't say it without sounding sarcastic even when that's not the intent.

 

[dalepres]

Even if someone might say Sir when getting a ticket, that's completely different from when the lecture starts. Once the lecture starts, then we're just shooting the **** and sharing opinions. Now it is time to get casual, lean against the car, grin, ask his name.. and shoot the **** like to new buddies on the side of the road. He is, afterall, no longer performing his official duties so he must be on break. We all like to shoot the **** when we're on break. Treat him like he's shooting the ****.. like an equal; no more than that.

*EDIT*: I see that I used too few asterisks. The word "breeze" should have had 6 stars, not 4.

 

[SomeKid]

dale,

Anything you say, can and will be used against you. He is not your friend, or nice acquaintance to chat with. He can and will lull you into a false sense of relaxation (or if a chick, might try to casually distract you) until you incriminate yourself.

 

[dalepres]

You're right. Good point. So the conversation about my gun turns to his gun. So, Jim, what do you like about your Glock? How many times do you practce? Wow, that's great. So, do you hunt? What kind of animal? What kind of guns?

In other words, considering the correctness of SomeKid's point, shooting the **** with someone who can use it against you is best done by getting the other guy to talk about himself. Sort of like a job interview over lunch. I am going to try to get the boss to talk about himself; or if I am the interviewer, I'll try to get the candidate to talk about himself But in any case, when the cop wants to go off the clock qnd argue with you, just turn it into a casual conversation. Don't submit and don't defend. Just chat. Disarm him without arming yourself.

 

[SomeKid]

dale,

Still a gamble. I have never had a friendly conversation that wasn't give and take (he asks, I ask). When I was interviewed for my current job for example, I asked questions and inquired about my interviewer/job. Just as they want a good employee, I want a good employer.

Now, look at my previous paragraph. Without prompting I shared a bit of personal trivia. Why? This is a friendly conversation. It happens. Done with a cop? Who knows.

 

[CliffH]

..... have no plans on switching to OC just to get a reaction from everyone until it's considered acceptable.

Not to address anyone specifically...

If I interpreted that statement correctly; I read it as "I'll wait for someone else to make it happen, then I'll take advantage of their work".

That kind attitude isn't much help for furthering gun rights, or any other rights for that matter.

I'm noticing more and more that people seem to be adopting the attitude that "someone else" will take care of "it" and don't want to get personally involved.

IMO, that's not a good sign.

 

[dalepres]

Well, you are right. Friendly conversations are never just a friendly conversation with someone who always considers himself on the job and who sees me as less than or separate from them. So just enough casual conversation to disarm the lecture and then on to dinner.

That's one of the things I like about the Internet forums. I can adjust and improve my plans all the time.

 

[SomeKid]

I hear that dale. I wish I had saved a video, but someone posted a lawyer giving a 30 min lecture on the 5A, and why talking to cops was bad. Until then, I thought exactly as you did: Talk and be friendly. I don't do any talk or friendly chit-chat. My game plan is to give them as cold a shoulder as possible, while doing the bare minimum I legally must.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Just curious. For all of you who have open carry states, have there been any incidents where a firearm has be ripped from a holster and stolen or even used on it's owner? We don't have OC in my state, only CC. If we were to get OC, I would feel very uncomfortable having my firearm displayed. It would make me feel that I would have to be on guard all the time just waiting for some jerk to run past me, grab my gun and keep going. It could even turn into a fad by a group of idiots, like those streakers at football games who run across the field nude.

None in Michigan, AFAIK. I open carried today for the first time since I received my CPL, as I was trying out a new holster both ways. Most of our full-time OC'rs are people that live in the sticks, so I don't hear too much about it.

 

[BigBlock]

Anything you say, can and will be used against you. He is not your friend, or nice acquaintance to chat with.

Well, you can have a chat with 'em, you just have to be really careful about what you say. I got pulled over a while ago and was given the drunk test. (I was sober as a priest) We ended up having a chat on the side of the road for about 15 minutes about my truck and one like it he was building.