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Friend wants a gun but cant buy one due to being a traveler, need advise..

Discussion in 'Legal' started by earl_je, Apr 22, 2008.

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  1. earl_je

    earl_je Member

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    I'm fairly new to gun ownership but getting pretty addicted to it. I'm hoping to eventually get into competitive shooting when I gain more experience.

    Anyway, a good friend of mine was also very interested in joining my newfound hobby. He is a resident immigrant alien greencard holder and works as a traveling RN in Colorado. We tried buying his first pistol at a local sportsman's warehouse but went home empty handed since they asked for his 3 latest utility bills. As I mentioned earlier, he's a traveling RN so he really doesnt have a permanent residence, hence, no bills. He moves in-state (CO) to different towns every 3-6months with housing paid for by his company. How would he be able to purchase a handgun?

    What are the legalities involved if I were to purchase the handgun, then sell it to him? What document would proove he is the new legal owner of the gun incase something happens? I completely trust him (been a longtime friend and he wouldnt be able to hurt a fly even if he tried) but still, how would I be rid of all the responsibility with the handgun I purchased instore then sold to him?
     
  2. Treo

    Treo member

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    Private gun sales are unregulated in Colorado, if he really wants a gun he should be able to buy one out of the paper.

    If, however, YOU buy a gun W/ the intent to sell it to him to get around the residence requirements you are either breaking state or federal law I'm not sure which.

    Does your freind not have a valid Colorado Drivers License or state issued I.D. card? Either should be suffcient to prove residency.

    To be perfectly honest your story isn't adding up, I smell a troll
     
  3. theken206

    theken206 Member

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    smells fishy to me as well
     
  4. earl_je

    earl_je Member

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    What doesnt add up? He does have CO drivers license. Check with any sportsman's warehouse and ask what they require for resident aliens (not citizen yet, but greencard holder) they need proof of state residency for 3 months. They basically need latest 3 utility bills which he doesnt have since he's a traveling RN (try asking around, these med people get paid big bucks AND have free housing/auto)
    Does that mean he cant buy his own gun just coz he doesnt have the utility bills?
     
  5. Diggers

    Diggers Member

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    Wow! Slow down guys...pretty quick on the troll draw. :eek:

    Maybe the OP is just new to all of this and doesn't know all the legal in and outs of buying a firearm....they can be pretty complicated at times.

    Perhaps we can ask the OP for more info as to why his friend was refused before calling him a troll?

    Here let me do it....

    Say, earl_je, what exactly was your friend told when he tried to buy a gun?

    ** So did you ask if there was any other method that he could use to prove he lives in CO? Perhaps pay stubs for the last 3 months...something like that?
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  6. mekender

    mekender Member

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    they should accept a notarized letter from his company saying that he is a resident of the state and that the company provides his housing... he needs to check with his local sheriffs office
     
  7. Treo

    Treo member

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    QUOTE: "they need proof of state residency for 3 months."

    My Colorado drivers license has the date of issue on it. & is accepted as proof of residency. 3 utility bills shouldn't be too hard to come by & if he has a valid drivers licence he shouldn't have any problem buying a firearm from a private seller.
     
  8. earl_je

    earl_je Member

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    Was always under the impression people here in THR were friendly, helpful individuals. I truly am new to the world of handguns thus needed advise about a purchase. Obviously, some people are too paranoid about things and jump on false pretense. Should have posted elsewhere for answers..
    BTW, found some answers here: http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13

    Thanks for those who actually tried to help. :)
     
  9. Treo

    Treo member

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    It sounds like you answered your own question three months worth of pay checks oughta do the trick.

    Sorry if I sound paranoid dude, but we do get the odd anti troll in here every now & then & your friends story sounds like an entrapment case looking for a place to happen.

    Like I said at first if YOU buy a gun W/ the intent of selling to him to beat the paperwork, YOU have commited a felony DON'T DO IT.

    And also like I said he should be able to legally buy a gun from a private party, no ncis , no utility bills . no problem
     
  10. tntwatt

    tntwatt Member

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    I have a friend here from Nigeria on an immigrant work visa. He was able to buy his own firearm because he has a permanent residence. If your friend wants to keep travel nursing vs. getting a permanent job then he's going to have to face up to the fact that he can't get a firearm. He is only a temporary resident until he takes a permanent job. I've been a nurse for 17 years and have come across this before.

    If you buy a gun with the intent of selling it to him it is called a straw purchase and is highly illegal in most states. Since he is an inelligible person and an immigrant, if you get caught, Homeland Security is going to eat you alive.
     
  11. cambeul41

    cambeul41 Member

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    The way I read it, he does have a permanent job -- one that involves travel.
     
  12. Pat-inCO

    Pat-inCO Member

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    Let's see, you are asking us to tell you HOW TO BREAK THE LAW. The first question on the BATF form is "Are you the actual buyer" (words to that effect). Therefore if YOU disregard the law, YOU are subject to long term JAIL TIME!

    And you want US to help you break the law - GET LOST! :fire: :cuss:
     
  13. Yas

    Yas Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase

    You just described a straw deal. Thanks a lot from severely firearm restricted Northern Illinois.
     
  14. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

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    This, you cannot do. You can sell him one of your firearms, but you cannot buy one for him with the INTENT of selling it to him. That is called a straw purchase and the .gov will frown upon that.

    Your best bet is to figure out how your friend can legally buy a firearm on his own. He can, for example, do that via legal face2face transaction with another CO resident.

    Treo hit it, on the first reply to your post. It is against Federal law, by the way, to engage in a straw man purchase.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  15. XDKingslayer

    XDKingslayer member

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    Yep.

    Welcome to THR. "The Hypocrite Road".
     
  16. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Seems to me that the idea of a notarized letter concerning his employment is a good one. I'd start there before continuing with an effort to purchase a firearm.

    For BATFE, the "straw purchase" applies only if the recipient is not legally allowed to buy/own/possess a firearm. A Green-card person is not forbidden by law to own a firearm.

    Since Sportsman's Warehouse is the source of the problem and not the law/regulation as written, I'd go to a different gunstore. I would make sure the seller was aware of the Green Card status.

    BATFE regs are stickied at the top of this forum. You can read/print out, whatever...
     
  17. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    This is not correct. Any time the buyer is not the actual buyer (other than the gift exception), it is a "straw purchase."

    From the Federal Code of Firearms Regulations:
    If you wanted to battle this in court, you might use US vs. Charles Ray Polk. No. 96-40836, Fifth Circuit, which seems to say that if you are both legal to own a gun you will be OK, but the ATF doesn't seem to agree with this, and they will be the ones prosecuting.

    How so? Section 14 of the 4473 asks for country of citizenship. If you don't check the United States box, you list your county in the line next to "other." If you do so, then the dealer is required to check additional paperwork, and he must enter this information in Section 20.b "Aliens only". For this section, paperwork such as utility bills or lease agreements must be provided showing 90 days continuous residency.

    It appears to me that Sportsman's was only following the law.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  18. Sniper X

    Sniper X Member

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    I think he can legally buy one from a private owner, but don't buy him one at a gunstore and sell it to him. Sell him yours and buy yourself another one, that is how us gun guys do it......Although I stopped selling guns, and kept buying them....please help me!
     
  19. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    So let me ask this. I see a great deal on a gun, let's say at a pawn shop. I don't want the gun, but I know they don't know what they have and I can sell it. So I buy it with only the intention of selling it. Is that a straw purchase?

    If the allien resident is legal to purchase the firearm in Colorado, there is nothing wrong or illegal with earl_je purchasing the firearm from an FFL with his own money. He then walks out the door and makes a perfectly legal sale to his friend who purchases the gun from him. Even make up a bill of sale which both parties sign and keep a copy of. There is absolutely, positively nothing illegal about that, both sales are completely legal.

    Once I buy a firearm, that firearm is mine to do with/dispose of as I see fit. If I bought a rifle and walked out of the store and bumped into a guy on the street and he says, wow! nice gun, I'll buy it for $15 more than you paid for it, and if he is a legal purchaser, I have broken no laws by selling it to him.

    A straw purchase is an attempt to furnish a firearm to a person who is not eligible to possess the firearm. It is not turning around and selling a legally owned firearm, even is owned for only 10 minutes, to another person who is legally eligible to purchase that firearm.

    Let's say a guy works for me in the Navy. He's 18 years old. He wants a particular handgun but can't buy it from an FFL. I tell him, if I have one of those guns will you buy it from me for $XXXX. He says, heck yes. I go and buy it and sell it to him the same day, or a week, or a month later. There is nothing illegal about that, it was my firearm to sell.
     
  20. Treo

    Treo member

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    I'm not sure I'd bet my freedom or my RKBA on your argument.

    If I see a really nice Kimber sitting in a pawn shop for 450.00$ & I buy it knowing that it's worth 2k that's one thing

    But if I buy the same gun knowing when I buy it that I'm going to sell it to my buddy, who couldn't meet the requirements in the gunstore 5 minutes after you're out the door, it's a straw purchase.
    You're not buying the gun because it's a 1500.00$ return on your investment, you're trying to beat the paper work
    Your intent makes all the difference in the world.

    P.S. My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended by my expression of mis-trust to our OP.
    However, I would like to point out that as some one who is " new to firearms ownership" and unsure of the legalities he had no problem describing a perfect straw purchase & finding the exact ATF reg. that answered his question. I reserve the right to be a little suspicious
     
  21. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    pat-inCO, take a deep breath and stop being such a jerk. Never did he ask us to help him break the law. He asked if it WOULD be legal for him to do it that way. Contrary to what many people on this board think, not everyone is up to speed on the intricacies of straw purchases or the other arcane and byzantine rules of the BATFE. If that's the best advice and help you can give a new member of THR, maybe you should get lost.
     
  22. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    Right. When you bought that gun, and you filled out the 4473, you were truthful when you answered "Yes, I am the actual buyer." At the time when you wrote "Yes" and then signed your name, you were buying that gun for yourself. If you were buying that gun to sell to someone else, you would not have been truthful.

    Since the law is based on your intent at the time of purchase, I am guessing that it is fairly hard to prove guilt, but that is still the law.

    Once again, this is not true. Other than the gifting exception, if you buy a gun for another person, WHETHER THEY ARE LEGALLY ALLOWED TO OWN ONE OR NOT, it is a straw purchase. I have highlighted the aplicable sections in bold in post #17.

    There is technically no law involving straw purchases that I have been able to find. It is not a legal term. It is just a term of that means "perjury that applies for lying on a 4473". When you lie on the 4473 and sign your name on the 4473 you are committing a felony.

    There is plenty illegal about that. Whether he gives you the money ahead of time to walk into the store, or he pays you later, if you buy the gun with the intent of it not actually being your gun, you lied on the 4473. Once again, this is a felony. If convicted, you forfeit all future gun ownership.

    Does the ATF have better ways to spend their time than prosecuting people who buy a gun for their elderly neighbor, who may legally own a gun but has trouble getting down to the gun store? I hope so. But you never know.
     
  23. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    OK. I just got off the phone with the ATF. The agent was a Navy Reserve Chief so we had a good conversation.

    If the gun is purchased with the express purpose of subsequently selling it to another individual, he said, yes, it is technically a straw purchase whether that gun is sold to a person eligible to receive firearms or not.

    If I purchase the gun for the express purpose of giving it to a person eligible to receive it as a gift, no that is not a straw purchase. I can even, if I desire, make a gift receipt that they sign stating the received the gun from me as a gift.

    If that person then turns around and "gifts me" $xxxxx, according to the ATF agent, that is allowed also, or pays me $XXXX for the orange I also happen to be selling at the same time. So long as both individuals involved agree and know that the gun was purchased as a gift and both are eligible to receive that firearm.

    He also said you have to be careful selling guns if you profit from the sale. If I find a good deal on a gun and buy it and turn around and sell it within a short period of time (he suggested <1 year) and make money on it, I can be considered dealing in firearms without a license.

    He also stated that if I buy the gun, and then go to the gun range and shoot it with a friend later that day, and that friend then wants to buy it, that is legal also, because I did not purchase the gun with the intent to sell it. (again as long as he is eligible to purchase the gun).

    So, bottom line, according to a Navy Reserve CPO who works at the Seattle office of the ATF, so long as both persons agree the gun is a gift, it does not matter to the ATF if money changes hands for some other reason.
     
  24. waterhouse

    waterhouse Member

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    I would want that in writing if I were going to stake my law abiding reputation on it.

    If that 18 year old you bought that gun for shoots someone, and they ask him where he got the gun, and he says "I bought it from NavyLT. He bought it from the gun store for me," they are going to come talk to you.

    Then they come to you, and you say "No Sir, that is not the case. I have here a signed piece of paper stating that the gun was a gift. I received no compensation for that transaction. Said 18 year old did in fact purchase a pencil I had on my desk that day for $475, but I assure you that was completely unrelated to the gun gifting. I spoke with an ATF agent on the phone who said this was OK."

    There is a reason the Tech. Branch of the ATF does not answer phone questions. Everything must be in writing.
     
  25. Sniper X

    Sniper X Member

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    Truthfully there is a bunch of good information here and some speculation, as with pretty much any thread. I thik that the poster should also be a little suspecious about the fact that this guy is not a US citizen. That in itself can be very sticky. I suggest you buy the gun he wants for yourself, and after finding out he is totally legitimate make a legal sale transaction with paperwork at a later date. I beleive this to be a legal way. As long as you can afford the gun yourself.
     
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