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Frog lube failed miserably

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by beeenbag, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. beeenbag
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    beeenbag Contributing Member

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    yeah, nah. I don’t need water displaced, I need a lubricant that doesn’t gum up in cold weather
     
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  2. entropy

    entropy Member

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    :uhoh:
    I've made a lot of money off of guys like you.......some of them I even told specifically NOT to use WD-40 as a lubricant, and told them specifically what TO use to avoid their jammed gun coming in the shop every fall.....but did they listen? No.
     
  3. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    A couple of things--but for the response to make sense, one must accept that not all specialized weapons lubes are created equal.

    1. The better specialized products place more emphasis on corrosion protection than a typical motor oil. Note that I'm NOT claiming that every gun-specific product is better than motor oil when it comes to corrosion protection nor am I claiming that motor oil provides no corrosion protection. However, it is true that no motor oil is really formulated to provide impressive corrosion protection while the better weapons lubes generally are.

    2. It's possible to get specialized lubes that place a priority on safety which can be an issue for use on an item that's going to be in long-term contact with skin and/or clothing. Again, that doesn't mean that every gun-specific product is formulated with skin contact safety in mind or even that the average gun-specific product is less toxic/more safe than motor oil. However, it is true that no motor oil is formulated with the idea that it needs to be safe for prolonged skin contact given the intended use.

    By the way, it's worth pointing out that there are lubes for other specialized applications which can make great weapons lubes because they are made for similar requirements. For example, in some cases, lubricants made for use on food-processing equipment can be a good choice because they are made to protect against the acids, water and salt commonly found in food and are also non-toxic. On the other hand, automotive lubricants, while certainly sufficient for use as weapons lubes, are formulated for an entirely different application with requirements which have very little in common with the requirements for weapons lubricants.

    By the way, if you really want to use an automotive product as a gun lubricant, ATF is probably a better choice than motor oil. Of course, ATF isn't formulated with the goal of long-term skin contact any more than motor oil is, so there's that to consider.

    Here's some good information that may be useful.

    https://www.grantcunningham.com/2006/05/lubrication-101/

    https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=546316
     
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  4. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    In addition to what @JohnKSa pointed out, there ARE specialized gun lubes for specific applications, such as cold weather applications.

    And though I'm not a Glock fan or owner, I do believe I read somewhere that a grease is used on the slide, not oil. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    AND..we're forgetting one of the top reasons why gun oil is used on guns...

    Because of that unique "gun oil" smell, which you can't get any other way!

    :p:p:p
     
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  5. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Glock puts anti-seize on areas of the slide in new guns. Or at least they used to--I haven't checked lately. This product was, as I understand it, there as sort of a break-in product. Glock advised that it should be left until it wore off, but never, to my knowledge, advocated replacing it.

    Personally, I usually use a grease that I make myself for slide rails because it tends to stay in place better than oil. It's really more of a dry lube that goes on wet like a grease than it is like a conventional grease, but since I make it myself, I guess I can call it what I want.

    I do use a small amount of very lightweight white lithium grease (or something similar) on the slide rails of my guns that have slides that ride on aluminum frame rails since my "grease" isn't really ideal for use on steel-to-aluminum contact.
     
  6. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    The only thing to keep in mind with any and all of the food grade lubricants, is they will ALL break down over time. All of them are bio degradable. If you are going to shoot and clean the weapon on a regular basis, it's most likely of no concern. But if the weapon is going to be stored for an indefinite period of time, the product will gum up as it's components begin the decomposition process. This was / is the problem that is now beginning to surface with the users of Frog Lube.

    "Food grade lubricant" means the lubricant itself is fit for human consumption. Which is why the FDA and USDA mandate it for use in and around food preparation machinery...... Not because of it's superior lubricating properties. It is made from organic matter that contains plant esters. Just like food, many of these lubricants have a "use by" date on them.

    And even if they don't, they will spoil if stored in a high temperature environment, such as a hot garage or storage shed over a long period of time. This is something firearms owners should be aware of, and consider before choosing such products. A petroleum based gun grease or oil will not break down over time. They have an all but indefinite shelf life.
     
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  7. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Incorrect.

    It is true that some food grade lubricants are biodegradeable/plant based, but they are certainly not constrained to be.

    They just have to be non-toxic. H1 and H3 category food grade lubricants must be acceptable for human consumption in the quantities expected to transfer to the food they come in contact with. Not necessarily acceptable in the sense of it's fine to drink an entire bottle, but rather in the sense that it's safe to consume the quantities that transfer from the machinery to the product being processed. Mineral oil can satisfy both H1 and H3 requirements and certainly isn't biodegradeable.

    H2 food grade lubricant is for use in applications in the food processing industry where there is no reasonable chance of it coming in contact with food. There's no question that it can be petroleum based.

    H1 and H3 category food-grade lubricants are more tightly restricted but even they aren't constrained to be biodegradeable/plant products. Here's the MSDS for Lubriplate FMO-350-AW, an H1 food grade lubricant that has already been mentioned on this thread.

    http://oilmart.com/data/products/msds/904/GHS Lubriplate FMO-350-AW 05232017.pdf

    The main ingredient is white mineral oil, CAS 8042-47-5, a refined petroleum product.

    https://www.chemicalbook.com/ProductChemicalPropertiesCB4111739_EN.htm

    Out of curiosity, I did a search on food grade lubricants and picked the first result, just to see if perhaps the Lubriplate product was unique in not being plant-based.

    http://archpdfs.lps.org/Chemicals/4025_Food_machinery_lubricant.pdf
    This is another H1 food-grade lubricant. It also lists a petroleum product as the main ingredient--in fact, it's the same mineral oil as used in FMO-350-AW.

    It also contains "Aluminum Complex Soap", zinc oxide and Butylated Hydroxy Toluene, none of which are "plant products".

    While it is true that H3 food-grade lubricants are much more likely to be biodegradeable/plant-based than H1, it's not true that they are constrained to be. McMaster Carr sells some H3 category food-grade lubricants based on silicone and PTFE, neither of which are plant-based products. Also, the regulations make it clear that highly refined mineral oil can satisfy H3 category requirements.

    https://iselinc.com/questions-answers/q-difference-food-grade-lubricant-classifications-h1-h2-h3/
    H3 lubricants may only contain edible oils that satisfy FDA 21 CFR 172.860 (such as corn, soybean or cottonseed oils), certain mineral oils that meet FDA 21 CFR 172.878, and oils generally recognized as safe (GRAS) under either FDA 21 CFR 182 or FDA 21 CFR 184. H3 lubricants are typically used to clean and prevent rust on hooks, trolleys and other such equipment.​
     
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  8. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Correct, but most are. While mineral oil itself may not be considered biodegradable in the true sense of the word, because it is manufactured from a petroleum base. There are both food, and non food grade mineral oil products.

    Most, but not all food grade mineral oil lubrication products are considered to have a shelf life of approximately 3 years, depending on the environment they are stored in. Hotter, more humid storage resulting in a shorter shelf life. Colder and drier, longer.

    The concern for gun owners involving shelf life, is in regards to long term storage of weapons. Again, if that is of no concern, then use it. I'm just not seeing ANY advantage to using limited shelf life lubricants on any firearm for any reason. Where is the upside?

    Unless the person is badly allergic, I can't see any concern over occasional skin contact by any or all of the petroleum based firearms lubricants currently on the market. (Including several of the automotive based lubrication products). It's much the same with lead in the shooting sports. I've been handling petroleum lubricated firearms, as well as casting, reloading, and shooting lead bullets for over 5 decades. And have suffered zero ill effects from any of it.

    A lot of this type of stuff is over played today, and simply requires the application of common sense. If I could find ANY evidence that mineral oil, (either food, or non food grade), offered any advantage from a lubrication standpoint over petroleum based products, I would use it without hesitation on guns I shoot on a regular basis. I can't so I don't.

    When I purchased my 1 pound can of Lubriplate, I bought the non food grade. (Midway USA sells both). Because I know it will last all but indefinitely. And because I could see absolutely no advantage to using the same product in a food grade on a weapon.
     
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  9. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd be interested in how you arrived at this characterization. Is that "most" across the board, just most H1 products, just H2, just H3, or a combination of H1 & H3 products?
    It's not considered biodegradable because it's not biodegradable. It's also not considered to be plant-based because it's not plant-based and it is considered to be petroleum based because it is petroleum based.

    I don't know where you're going with this. The bottom line is that it is not true that "...any and all of the food grade lubricants, ...will ALL break down over time. All of them are bio degradable."

    It seems unlikely that any H2 products at all are biodegradeable/plant based. It seems likely that a lot of the H1 products, perhaps even most of them are petroleum based. It does seem that most (but not all) H3 category products are plant-based. But any way you cut it, the assertion that all food grade lubes are biodegradable and plant-based is absolutely incorrect.
    Of course there are. Nothing I posted, and nothing in the sources I linked to suggest otherwise.
    Given that you characterized petroleum based oils as having an "all but indefinite" shelf-life and stated categorically that they "will not break down over time", what is it that makes these particular mineral-oil based petroleum products have such a short shelf-life? I'd be interested to see the information you used to come to this conclusion.
    I don't see any advantage to it either. I also don't see any evidence that it's necessary to avoid food grade lubricants to keep away from limited shelf-life lubricants. Clearly there are a number of H1, H2 and H3 category food-grade lubricants that are not biodegradeable/plant-based and therefore should have, as you say, "all but indefinite shelf life."
    Another member asked a question about why someone would use something other than automotive products--what advantages there were. I provided an answer to that question with some additional information thrown in.

    The answer doesn't state that the advantages were overwhelming or critically important, and as far as I can see, it doesn't even imply that. It also doesn't suggest that people who do use automotive products are dooming themselves or their guns to a horrible fate.
     
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  10. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Or I you. Look, my reply was not intended to put you on the defensive, and turn this whole thing into a Shuttle launch, with pages of nit picking and defensive counter posting.

    The title of this thread is how, "Frog Lube Failed Miserably". I replied the reason it did is because the stuff IS plant based. It DOES break down and decompose because of that fact. And it DOES gum up and lock up guns when it does. There is evidence of this all over the Internet. And Frog Lube is NOT the only plant based, bio degradable "gun oil" this happens with. There are many.

    Based on that, along with the fact most gun owners are not going to spend hours researching reams of information and MSDS publications, to try and determine what is or isn't in their gun lube of choice, I simply stated it's to most shooters advantage to avoid these type of lubricants all together, because there is no advantage to using them to begin with. That's it. Nothing more.
     
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  11. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with all of this 100%. I don't see any advantage to the plant-based products that outweigh their downsides. That's even more true when one considers that the advantages that the plant-based products do provide can be had in other products without having to deal with the disadvantages they come with.
     
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  12. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    Not really, if one wants to make such a blanket statement one really needs to back it up with some sort of data, personal experience, or case as to why.

    Just product "XYZ", Nuff said, has no credibility.

    What oil/grease to use threads are almost as bad as what gun for bear threads, except that we can glean some useful information form these threads if we work at it.

    If you are properly maintaining your weapon on a consistent basis, which oil you use is not that critical IMHO. Lot's of things "work". Some are slicker, some work in heat or cold better, some are no good for long term use with no maintenance, some smell, some don't, some are cheap, some are not.

    50+ years ago some sort of oil gummed up all my little race cars after sitting up for a long time. I have never had that issue with a handgun in the next 1/2 decade.

    We have some really good choices these days.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/best-gun-oil.801479/page-2#post-10310086

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/best-gun-oil.801479/#post-10229476
     
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  13. Doc7

    Doc7 Member

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    hornady one shot
    Crushed the gun product evaluation test. mo questions about it, only thing I put on any of my guns except my muzzleloader (it’s so clean for the muzzleloader that the dirty second shot is 7” different than the clean shot. Using regular hoppes gun oil, POI shift is only an inch).
     
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  14. benEzra

    benEzra Moderator Emeritus

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    You beat me to it. Mobil 1 5W30 is still liquid at -54deg Fahrenheit.
     
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  15. FlSwampRat

    FlSwampRat Member

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    Or move south. Just sayin'.
     
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  16. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    I'm firmly of the established belief that a fluid can be the best at one thing, perhaps darn good at two, and acceptable at three.
    Many other fluids are none of those.
    I use Hoppes for cleaning, 5w20 for lubing, and Renaissance Wax for protection. Are any of them the best? No, but they're half the price of those that are, and they work plenty well enough until I can put them to work again.
    BreakFree CLP gets my pass when I need something that does all three quickly. It doesn't clean as well or stay in place to lubricate as long, and the only reason it protects as well is because I can't get it to stop flowing over everything.
    Notice none of those are organic, biodegradable, or 'all-natural'. I'd use stuff that was if it was available and priced right. And some stuff that is works great. But usually not as well, they don't last as long, or separate, or don't work in a wide range of temperatures and conditions.

    Firearm technology is in a state where the associated fluids that have been 'good enough' for years are... good enough. It's going to be a long time until something is a 'game changer'. Every year brings out something that is incrementally better, and exponentially priced.
    If it's overpriced, it's probably hype. If it's not, it's... probably hype. But it might work, on the basis of being something already established with a different percentage of ingredients.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  17. JONWILL

    JONWILL Member

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    I agree. WD40 will kill your primers for one. It will also gum up the inside of the gun. I found that out the hard way. I had a Smith and Wesson model 38 that I sprayed down with WD40 and let it sit for a year before getting it out. I couldn't get the cylinder to rotate. The WD40 turned to a varnish and acted like glue
     
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  18. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    I know that WD-40 gets a bad rap both in and on a lot of gun forums. That said, it scores remarkably well in the Brownell's rust inhibitor test. Better than most actually. But it is lacking in the lubrication dept.
     
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  19. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Really have to work at it!:eek:
    And this thread is about as bad as a bear thread. So much to do about so little?!
    Like a thesis for a PhD

    Homemade grease, seriously? No modern gun maker that I know of calls for grease? Glock calls for a few scant drops of oil.

    Many many Gun Lubes have Teflon PTFE. One doe not have to see it dripping off for it to work.

    Food grade? So what?. Ballistiol is mineral oil it is bio degradable but the nuances of different food grades? It's not food processing its a GUN!.
    Coconut oil? Palm oil, peanut oil, soybean oil Olive oil. I can make my own Coconut and Palm oil in my back yard. How about Whale oil. bear grease?

    Peanut oil has a high burn temp, use Pam on your guns.:scrutiny:
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
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  20. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    Pat Rogers ran an AR on Vagisil once.
     
  21. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

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    And while we're on the subject of AR's, be sure to use enough of whatever you use.

     
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  22. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    I forget to mention KY (water based):)
     
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  23. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    he also saw a piece of 223 brass hit the back of my neck once and put vagisil on the burn while i was still shooting. i was like wth is going on back there. he was giggling like a school girl.
     
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  24. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    To be fair, axle grease is technically "still liquid at -54deg Fahrenheit", as well.

    Though I get what you're saying.

    Sorry... that's the engineer in me!
     
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  25. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Heh... it probably works remarkably well as a rust inhibitor because it's both a water displacer AND it turns into a rather resilient layer of gummy varnish over time!

    :):):)
     
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