Quantcast

Frog lube failed miserably

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by beeenbag, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,469
    Location:
    Hawkeye East
    @JohnKSa I agree with everything you wrote. The points I’m attempting to make is that 1. there is nothing objective in a blanket statement in the OP that says, and I’m paraphrasing, “everything negative said on the internet about product X is true”. 2. We’re mostly strangers gathered around a common interest but of many skill levels/habits which, until qualified, leaves us guessing. 3. That by scientific approach the plural of anecdotal is not fact, only repeatability establishes probable causality.

    If an overwhelming number of users note problems of a similar nature and the common denominator is Frog Lube, a justifiable conclusion may be made. If the problem relates to say one specific model of firearm, of serial number range xxx-xyz and no other, we would certainly want to delve deeper before reaching the same conclusion.

    I don’t profess to the idea people blindly agree with anything written being fact which is why I cautioned the use of the OP’s statement that the “rumors” were all true. At best he is correct and there’s a faulty lube being sold. At worst the cause of his malfunction lies elsewhere and could cost someone else their life.

    I’ve used WD, FP-10, Bore Shine, Safariland/Breakfree/G-96 Synthetic CLPs, RemOil, Hoppes, Shooters Choice, Bore Butter, Pro Shot, Super Clean, Rig +P, One Shot, and many more over the decades and not once experienced a stuck bolt. Of course I believe in viscosity, I’ve simply never seen it do what has been claimed with any of those products under the conditions I have faced (which I previously outlined).
     
  2. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    15,829
    Location:
    DFW Area
    To the extent that this is true, it is true of both negative AND positive anecdotes.

    Saying: "I've used this product and it's bad so don't buy it and don't believe people who say it's good based on anecdotal data." is really no different from saying: "I've used this product and it's good so don't believe people who say it's bad based on anecdotal data."

    What I'm trying to get at is that it's usually not kosher to attack anecdotal evidence while at the same time using anecdotal evidence to try to prove your own point.

    The exception would be that if a universal statement is made such that a single anecdote could provide the counterexample. For example, if someone were to claim that every swan is white based on anecdotal evidence (e.g. "All the swans I've ever seen and all the swans my friends have ever seen are white so they must all be white.") then just one sighting of a black swan is sufficient to disprove the claim.
     
    Skylerbone likes this.
  3. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2019
    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    There is something else about Frog Lube that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it states in the instructions that the gun, "Must be free of any and all petroleum based lubricants BEFORE applying any Frog Lube".

    And once the Frog lube is applied, you cannot use or substitute ANY petroleum based lubricants. You must continue to use only Frog Lube. This is because Frog Lube is not a petroleum based product. It contains plant based esters. And it will not mix with petroleum oils or greases. A bit like painting over latex with an oil based paint.

    This could constitute a extreme major PITA either in the field, or with someone with a large firearms collection, who uses petro based lubricants. Basically Frog Lube is an, "All or nothing" product. If you use it, you cannot go back to what you were using, unless you completely clean and remove every trace of Frog Lube from said weapon.

    There are reports all over Internet gun forums of people who didn't do this, and had issues with the Frog Lube reacting by turning into a sticky, gooey, mess. It's not like going from dino oil to synthetic in your car or truck. You can switch back and forth with zero ill effects.

    Now, just so people don't think I'm picking on Frog Lube, this holds true with ANY plant ester based lubrication product.... Not just Frog Lube. Another thing is, this whole deal works the other way around just as well. If you were to try Frog Lube, and found out you didn't like it. And you wanted to go back to your trusty CLP, motor oil, Ed's Red, or whatever concoction tickles your fancy, you must completely clean every trace of Frog Lube out of the weapon, before you can change back. Yet another PITA.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  4. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2019
    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Before I retired, I worked in the metalworking trades for over 45 years. I can safely say that I have never come across a product, ANY PRODUCT, that was anywhere near as effective at doing what it was designed and brought to market to do, after the formula was changed to make it more "environmentally friendly". Basically, show me a product that was changed to be "better" for the environment, and I will show you one that no longer works as well, if at all.
     
  5. rust collector
    • Contributing Member

    rust collector Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    1,646
    Location:
    Pierre, SD USA
    Many seem to like Frog Lube (4+ stars at Amazon. Optics Planet sells a gallon bucket for $180) and many are less impressed with the coconut oil based product. I bought a bottle, tried it on a couple guns, and went on to the next great thing (may have been Gunzilla) because I was used to petro based products and FL did nothing for me that those did not do.

    If FL disappoints, I suspect that a big part of that is high expectations due to extreme hype. If it works well for you, by all means carry on. The more pedestrian CLP and Lucas extreme duty gun oil, with a dab of synthetic grease where indicated, do what I need if I do my part.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  6. film495

    film495 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2019
    Messages:
    840
    I just use gun oil. None of the manuals I've read for any of my firearms say anything about grease, so - I just use oil. Rifles, revolvers, pistols, shotguns, none of the manuals say anything about grease. Oil is what is used to lube pistons in vehicles that go 200,000 miles.. thinking it isn't going to work on a slide where there is relatively little pressure seems silly to me. The oil just makes a film and the parts ride on the oil film, just like inside a motor that goes on and on for 200,000 miles. Think about how many cycles that is for a piston and cylinder. 1,500 RPM at say 35 mph - what is that millions of cycles - and no grease …
     
    Mr. Zorg likes this.
  7. beeenbag
    • Contributing Member

    beeenbag Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,667
    Location:
    Grayson, Ky
    my rifle didn’t jam, it froze up. I hardly think chamber cleanliness or not trimmed brass would also cause the bolt takedown lever to also be locked in the open position. If you read my original post, I thawed the rifle out and it worked better. I have the same round as I didn’t fire a shot that day, it goes in and out of my chamber just fine in my heated home and clp cleaned rifle.

    I didn’t jump to conclusions or stop at the first possible problem here. I wouldn’t title the thread “rifle jammed” when the rifle didn’t jam at all. Rifle froze up due to the lubricant, so thread got titled accordingly.
     
  8. AK103K

    AK103K Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    6,803
    I think most people put WAY too much of "anything" on, and excess oil tends to fly off all over the place. Grease tends to stay put, and looks to be more effective because of it.

    Somethings, like M1's, M14's, ect, do require or call for grease to be used, so there is that too.
     
  9. beeenbag
    • Contributing Member

    beeenbag Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,667
    Location:
    Grayson, Ky
    it’s becoming very evident that you desire to defend FL against what actually happened during my hunt. If you choose to believe that I have out of spec factory ammo that magically went back into spec after one chambering, or that my chamber was too dirty and after clearing a live round it magically got okay, or that maybe I was just really weak that day and couldn’t lift the bolt all while accidentally holding my finger perfectly on the bolt take down, 4 times while looking directly at it, inserting the bolt and pulling it right back out, by all means, believe that.

    if the product works for you then no one is telling you to stop using it. I’ve read more than a handful of cases like mine so my wording in the op is not misleading by any stretch of the imagination. “Internet rumors of frog lube gumming up and causing problems in cold weather hold true.” Is not jumping to conclusions when the scenario in which my conclusion derives from is exactly that, gummed up froglube freezing the action in cold weather.

    again, if you like it then like it and use it, but I’d appreciate if you’d refrain from attempting to portray my personal judgment as being a fool. It’s a bit insulting when someone who was not there and has zero idea of the scenario personally, attempts to tell the person that was there what the issue ACTUALLY was. No, I’m not an idiot, and I know what can cause potential problems and jams. If I had a stuck case I’d have said that, if I had a bullet jammed into the rifling, I’d have said that. If a bird had taken a fly over dump that landed into the action and froze, I’d have said that. Let me be clear, in my personal case, the froglube used as directed, became thick, lost viscosity and seized my rifle action from opening using normal operating pressure and techniques. The only variable that changed from a non operating rifle and an operating rifle was the temperature.
     
  10. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,469
    Location:
    Hawkeye East
    ^^^^This was the claim^^^^

    Now for what I wrote:

    ^^^^That^^^^ sums up to “Not ALL Internet rumor about FL gumming up in cold is true” or that I am lacking credibility.

    Like others here I want to use what works. I still have dozens of other cleaners and lubricants on my bench top and elsewhere from which to chose, often discreetly featured in my postings. This is not me or my ego refusing to acknowledge a potential problem, it was simply a matter of encouraging the OP to omit blanket statements that may leave people dismissive of what is otherwise good information to be mindful of.

    “My Walker trigger jarred off when opening my bolt” is a very different statement than “All Walker triggers are junk”. Adding the specifics such as “Box stock, apart from cleaning with Zippo fluid every 250 rounds” gives readers a better picture of the author.

    I can also attest that @beeenbag is IMO a valuable contributor at THR who’s credibility I don’t doubt, never my intent to infringe on it, only to encourage omitting the disprovable assertion that was initially proffered. I understand it was meant to inform readers that his incident was not singular as evidenced by a simple Internet search, but without examining those other reportings we won’t know the particular facts involved.
     
    SwampWolf likes this.
  11. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,469
    Location:
    Hawkeye East
    By my count there are 17 visible products there, two obscured by virtue of being tucked away in a bin, and not counting those in my range bag. I’m not employed or compensated by any of their makers. I have no loyalty to any of them as evidenced by the myriad choices on hand. For me I sought to keep it simple by consolidating, as much as possible, what I use, and using what seemed to work best.

    My FL testing began with a single pistol not in my SD line up and was exhaustive enough to be broadened. Still anecdotal and still not aimed at discrediting anything EXCEPT All Internet rumors.


    0C07F185-D9B2-47D6-8797-17C9509E291E.jpeg
     
  12. beeenbag
    • Contributing Member

    beeenbag Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,667
    Location:
    Grayson, Ky

    point taken, just keep in mind more than one thing can be true at a time. Internet rumors of FL being bad in cold weather can be confirmed by anectdotal cases the same way that internet claims of froglube being just fine can also be confirmed with anecdotal cases. My validation of the ones that claimed it isn’t friendly with cold weather does not immediately claim dismissal of anyone else’s experience of a different outcome. It simply means I found the same conclusion as the ones that found it to gum up in cold weather. It is still up to each individual to come to their own conclusions based on personal experience or by, as another poster said, wading through the trash to find the nugget, in regards to other’s testimony. I most certainly believe you have had no problems with froglube. I also know that believing your experiences will not cause me to go put on another coat of it and take back to the cold weather woods. Again, two truths are possible and no one will ever know the difference in your bottle and mine.
     
    Skylerbone likes this.
  13. Skylerbone

    Skylerbone Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    5,469
    Location:
    Hawkeye East
    And ^^^^that, @beeenbag is an excellent post and the very same course of action I would take if it were to happen to me. Bad batches do happen, we discuss such issues with reloading among others frequently. It holds true of any product that planned or unforeseen variations are possible, probably inevitable, and that the totality of even anecdotal evidence ought to weigh into everyone’s consideration, ideally leading to a most likely conclusion.

    My apologies for what has become a derailment and for any offense I may have caused.
     
  14. Allen One1

    Allen One1 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2017
    Messages:
    388
    Location:
    Nashville, TN
    I have Frog Lube that I use on my hand planes to keep them from rusting. Yes it gets sticky after it has been on the steel for a while. On my firearms I use Go Juice oil and Go Juice Very Thin Grease with good results in temps from 25 to 95 degrees. I also use the very thin grease on my reloading press with very good results.
     
  15. Wishoot

    Wishoot Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,504
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I lead a dull life.

    I found Ballistol years ago and have stuck with it for almost 100% of my firearm applications (and many non-firearm applications as well). Beyond the odor, it seems to do everything well.

    Sometimes I'll use a 50/50 mixture of ATF and Marvels Mystery Oil depending on the gun (for some reason, my AR really likes this mix).
     
  16. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    5,541
    Ideally I am in the same boat. I prefer G96. Cleans well, smells great. Almost like vanilla. It is hard to find locally so I keep Breakfree CLP, Rem Oil, some genuine CLP, and Hoppes Elite on hand. I also have some Spartan systems cleaner, that I got for free, I will have to try at some point The Hoppes Elite is useful because it is a small bottle and can slip into a range bag easier than a 12oz can.
     
  17. Kevin Rohrer

    Kevin Rohrer Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,153
    Location:
    Medina, Ohio USA
    What more can you expect from coconut oil?
     
    beeenbag likes this.
  18. Lycidas Janwor

    Lycidas Janwor Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Basket of Deplorables
    Isn't Frog Lube a vegetable/organic based lubricant of some type?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
    Bill460 and beeenbag like this.
  19. Lycidas Janwor

    Lycidas Janwor Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    Location:
    Basket of Deplorables
    If Frog Lube is made from some form of organic/vegetable based oil, that reason alone is enough for me not to use it. Any kind of vegetable oil, even if rated as a high temp oil, is never going to be as good as a petroleum based lubricating oil IMHO because, well because any petroleum based lubrication oil is going to withstand extreme temperatures, especially hot temperatures better than any organic/vegetable based oil/lubricant.

    As for super low temp oils/lubricants, I'm guessing the best for that is, again, petroleum based synthetic oils/lubricants of some kind. I've lived in extremely cold climates where the temp can drop to 40 below and stay there for a week or two. My car always had a full synthetic, light, motor oil in it and it paid for itself in gold, especially when the temps got real, real low.

    As for me, I use Break Free CLP simply because it's a proven product over the years and there may indeed be a better petroleum based lubrication oil out there but I'll never know the difference in the use of my guns.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
    Bill460 likes this.
  20. herrwalther

    herrwalther Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    5,541
    Well then, don't use it. Apparently it got put through a science sniffing machine (composition analysis)
    https://www.northeastshooters.com/x...s-coconut-oil-you-heard-it-here-first.302999/

    My big turn off from Froglube was always the price. At the rate I found little tubs of it, I wouldn't have any money to shoot anyway.

    Fireclean anyone?
     
    Bill460 likes this.
  21. Bill460

    Bill460 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2019
    Messages:
    245
    Location:
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    This quote is from one of the posts contained in the above link. It's basically right on.

    "Lol...and people actually believed that it sinks into the metal and allows you to run your AR with a dry bolt... Running an extremely thin layer was the only way they could sell it to people without it gumming up everyone's guns."
     
  22. Mark1964

    Mark1964 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2020
    Messages:
    231
    Re a possible cold weather solution, I've hunted with shotguns down to -20 using G96 products, specifically the G96 Complete Gun Treatment. (That's the aerosol; G96 Gun Oil is the same stuff in liquid.) It's done very well for me in the cold.
    It's marketed as a CLP, and I agree with the poster re CLP products having limited ability to do all three terribly well. My experience with G96 is that it's fair as a cleaner and a lube, outstanding as a protectant.
    What I'm using these days:
    For light oil, Shooter's Choice FP-10 Lubricant Elite
    For a grease: Lubriplate SFL-0
    For a protectant: G96
    Re bore solvents, my demands are fairly low-end, as I don't do much centerfire rifle or magnum pistol that produce much copper fouling. For lead, plastic and carbon, I've been using Kroil. When I do need a copper solvent, I use Pro Shot Copper Solvent IV. No ammonia, no foul smell, and it works.
    Obviously, I agree with the poster who remarked we can be afforded the luxury of keeping a few different products on the bench.
    In my range and field bags, I keep a 1.5 ounce aerosol can of Ballistol. A decent get-it-up-and-running-solution, but not my mainline C, L or P. I also put in one of those little 1/2 ounce mil surp bottles filled with some FP-10.
     
  23. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    3,341
    My experience with Froglube initially was positive. I ran a light coat on a PSA AR, then a home built shorty AR during hot summers and cold winters. Satisfied, I applied Froglube to two Colt ARs, two Colt 1911s, and a .22 Walther pistol. All four Colts started malfunctioning. The AR pistol started malfunctioning after running it with a .22 adapter. The .22 Walther pistol jammed up so tight I could not open the slide and thought something broke and would need to go back to the factory.

    Digging into the problem revealed that I had not thoroughly cleaned the Colts of the factory applied preservative. Where the preservative came in contact with the Froglube, the combination turned something almost like rubber cement.

    The problem with the shorty AR and the .22 Walther was due to the Froglube and the bullet lube mixing with similar results. In each case, detail stripping each firearm and cleaning out the sticky hardened mess and lubing with conventional gun oil returned them back to normal function. I won't be using anymore Froglube on any of my weapons.

    I did discover that Froglube makes a good cutting oil when drilling. I used it to drill cotter pin holes through the teeter and hinge bolts on a helicopter after the installation of new rotor blades. I was pleasantly surprised the bit was still sharp after drilling through all three bolts.

    A word about using powdered graphite- pencils are not allowed when making marks on aircraft structures. The graphite from the pencil gets into the grain of the metal and causes imbrittlement, leading to cracks where the line was drawn. Steels used in high temp areas and aluminum & titanium are especially susceptible.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  24. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2009
    Messages:
    5,364
    Location:
    Northern KY
    I keep a can of cheap vegetable shortening on the bench with my metal lathe to use as a cutting lubricant. I’m not surprised that coconut oil is similar.
     
    Texas10mm likes this.
  25. Mr. Zorg

    Mr. Zorg Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2019
    Messages:
    463
    FWIW, a general rule is a lubricant layer only needs to exist as a one molecule thick consistent film to protect against something like rust (oxidation).

    Engine oils have around 20% additives as well as the lubricant base oils. These serve a lot of functions such as neutralization of acidic combustion byproduts, detergents, surfactants to keep particles suspended rather than deposits, antiwear additives with sodium and molybdenum organometallic complexes, and protection against oxidation in the temperatures combustion cylinder walls experience (which is not the same as bulk oil temperature. I don't know of any studies regarding use of engine oils (and automotive fluids in general) when used on firearms, good or bad.

    Most synthetic oils are derived from petroleum just highly specific methods on how the petroleum molecules are manipulated to obtain the final product base oils. In general there's significant improvement in cold flow properties and that's about all I see that has a significant advantage for firearms. Traditional gun oils worked well until the frozen reaches fought over in the WWII era, and during colder than average winters in some of those years. I see no real advantage to anything other than traditional gun oils unless the firearm is planned to be used in what as a planetary average may be described as extreme conditions, but locally in some areas may be typical conditions.

    Oils derived from recently deceased plants an animals tend to not have really good cold flow properties compared to petroleum based oils refined and in some cases synthesized in a similar boiling range. Biodiesel is a relatively common example, and some refineries are processing animal tallows and such for use in diesel engines, and one lubricant company tried hard to market engine oils using animal fats but lost their foray into that retail market in the USA.

    Me, I still have plenty of vintage Outers gun oil from the 1960's I still use, that my father used when we lived in Wyoming. If I were to go on a caribou hunt in North America for example, I would look for a synthetic but still petroleum derived gun oil to minimize risk of losing big bucks (in at least two definitions) from having the opportunity to reduce risk and not doing so.

    YMMV, as always
     
    rust collector likes this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice