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From outside the bubble...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Titan6, Jul 19, 2009.

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  1. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    I found this an interesting read.
    We don't get to see this very often around here because.... well it is self explanatory is it not?

    It was here with this article:

    http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/MART191_20090718-234801/280934/
     
  2. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    So the author thinks gun owners are arrogant and think the (skewed and stretched) statistics don't apply to their own households ... and yet is a firearms owner who obviously doesn't think those same statistics apply to their household.

    Logic FAIL
     
  3. c919

    c919 Member

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    NRA.... No willingness to seek middle ground....

    Ok. Right........
     
  4. AKElroy

    AKElroy Member

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    Open a Thread dealing with the issue of "reasonable" gun restrictions and you will find many IN THIS FORUM holding many of these views. Some allow thier actions to be driven in such a way as to not offend individuals such as the author of that peice. Cannot be done---If you own a gun & disagree with them on any level, you are offensive and must be defeated.
     
  5. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

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    Well, if it wasn't true the author would be able to say why it's not true.

    Here's the question: When has gun control reduced crime or suicide? There has been stuff like project exile that reduced crime, yet that was better enforcement.
     
  6. orvpark

    orvpark Member

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    exactly

    The NRA is the middle ground.
     
  7. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Their idea of "middle ground" is to pass more restrictions and give back nothing. While they trumpet statistics that have been discredited, they refuse to notice published news accounts where the availability of a firearm has saved good people and thwarted criminals. They often call for more legislation when it is obvious that the proposal will have little impact on crime because it can’t effectively be enforced against those who commit crimes. They bemoan the death of “children,” but use a 20 year-old gangbanger to pad the numbers they cite. Put bluntly, this individual is a fraud.
     
  8. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    Not in the UK that is for sure, the rate of self harm has steadily increased since the bans were enacted.
     
  9. Titan6

    Titan6 member

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    A bit later he says:

     
  10. THE DARK KNIGHT

    THE DARK KNIGHT Member

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    Reasonable Gun Regulation:
    Being able to apply for your permit to purchase a childproof .22lr or .410 shotgun once every 6 months after fingerprinting, registration, 30 day waiting period after a background check and 3 letters of reference. Also displaying your permit to purchase .22lr or .410 shotgun micro-stamped ammunition 50 rounds per year.
     
  11. AK kind of guy

    AK kind of guy Member

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    People who want to harm themself or someone else will do it with whatever means they have why dont people rally against kitchen knives and asprin they are in far more homes than guns and can easily kill ones seilf or somebody else if used in a inproper way
     
  12. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Sounds an awful lot like the author is sore that their argument isn't simply accepted without debate.

    Like the infamous "43 times more likely to be killed with a gun in the house than by an intruder ..." argument .... in which the statistic gatherers included all crack houses, meth houses, and other similar activities together .... I mean, gee whiz, if you don't live in a crack house, or a meth house, or bring similar unsavory characters into your home, then why would you expect to have a higher chance at being shot by a gun?

    Of course, ignore that millions of people have firearms in their homes and no one is murdered or accidently shot ... go figure ....

    Or ignore Criminologist Gary Kleck's studies, that indicate that between one and two million law abiding people use firearms to successfully defend themselves every year ...
    go figure.


    So it's OK to complain that the ... ahem, "gun nuts" denounce their "opponents" as "liberal socialists" (eewwww, that horrible "name-calling") but, of course, the term "gun nut" is perfectly OK.


    ARGH!​
     
  13. Zane

    Zane Member

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    I'm assuming this is referencing one of the famous Arthur Kellermann studies.

    The author is somewhat misquoting the conclusions. Kellermann argued that a gun in the home was 43 times more likely to kill a family member than an assailant. As the vast majority of the deaths in his study were suicides, thus having a gun is more likely to lead to suicide.

    The study does not support this conclusion. More over, if you look at suicide rates in the US compared to European countries with restrictive firearms laws, the rates are very similar. While the US is higher than many, it is certainly not at the top.

    The methodology is flawed. As self defense is very rare and death by suicide is very high, in comparison, you could probably show that pepper spray ownership or going to karate classes puts you at higher risk of death than successfully defending yourself from an attacker.

    Kellermann's other study showed, that after adjustment for other confounders, a gun in the home increases the risk of homicide by 2.7 times. What are the other confounders? Drug use, a criminal in the home and history of fights in the home. Basically, all things that would make a person prohibited from having a gun in the home. Additionally, many people killed in the home were killed by people who don't live there. Thus the correlation of the gun seems to be more a marker of violence than the "cause" of violence.

    Lots of stuff gets stolen and resold. That means we shouldn't have potentially dangerous things that could get stolen and resold...like cars. Knives? Pipes? Spears? Bow and arrow? Puppies?

    Don't think the antis are much better. They just use garbage data to make themselves think they are right.

    No data actually supports that, so I have nothing to admit, on the score.

    This is the key to destroying an anti. Learn the ins and outs of their data and then destroy it. That leaves them with nothing but their feelings.
     
  14. Animal Mother

    Animal Mother Member

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    There, I fixed it for him. :neener:


    Seriously though, I don't understand why we have to meet a middle ground with these people. I don't have to meet a middle ground with racists, bigots, fascists, or other deprivers of liberty, why in the world should I meet a middle ground with this person?

    I am absolutely convinced on the rightness of my beliefs and I will not be swayed otherwise.

    After all, the relevant constitutional amendment which guarantees my liberty reads as follows:

    "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2009
  15. Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow

    Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow member

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    I am very pleased that this person is espousing a "don't argue with the gun nuts" approach - if he/she convinces a few other hoplophobes to keep their yammering libtard pieholes shut, we'll all be that much happier. Sounds win-win to me.
     
  16. HeavenlySword

    HeavenlySword Member

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    sadly, too many people think like that.
     
  17. WTBguns10kOK

    WTBguns10kOK Member

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    I wish someone could do a candid camera show where someone pretended to attack them or their children, magically introduce an airsoft/paintball gun for their defense and see how many of them find they actually possess a survival instinct.
     
  18. happygeek

    happygeek Member

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    Yeah, just another idiot talking about guns and violence in the states while somehow forgetting about gangbangers and the War on Drugs. When will people wake up and realize that gangs that make their money from selling drugs are to blame for much of the violence in this country? Making drugs illegal didn't solve the issue or stop criminals from having/selling them. What makes them think that making guns illegal would have any better result? Here's some simple logic for any politician: when you ban something that is in demand you create a black market. Black markets tend to breed violence, since the only way to settle a dispute in a black market is through violence. They even teach this principle in college economics classes, at least they did when I was there. It was true in the 1920s with prohibition and Al Capone, it's just as true today with drugs.

    On a side note, maybe I should start saying that free speech should be illegal and complain that those pesky first amendment supporters are unwilling to compromise on a middle ground with me ... :banghead:
     
  19. TX1911fan

    TX1911fan Member

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    So, in his second post he acknowledges that there is already a "middle ground"? Then why do we need any more regulation or compromise? If we are already at the middle ground, why doesn't he shut up? Why keep harping for more regulation? That must mean he doesn't like the middle ground and wants to move from it . . . which is exactly why we oppose virtually ANY new gun law. We know which way they are trying to go.
     
  20. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

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    With a few minor changes, that could be turned around to say something along the lines about not wasting time arguing with the gun CONTROL nuts - that there is already a middle ground, etc., etc.
     
  21. BullitHolz

    BullitHolz Member

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    Consider the fact that he SHOWS his obvious bias by referring to the so-called "gun nuts" right off the bat and henceforth there CAN BE NO MIDDLE GROUND with him in the first place, it simply can't exist with an attitude like the one he demonstrates.

    This whole idea of a "middle ground" is bull anyway, sounds good but most of the politically senstive subjects are not suite to a mile groun argument. Think of it like subjects about religion or pregnancy or abortion...these are black an white by their very nature. You either beleive in god or you don't, you either are pregnant or your not, you either kill a fetus or you don't.

    It's THE IDEA that there can be a "middle ground" is where many of these problems come from IMO. The old idea that "you can have your cake and eat it too". The entire premise is simply incompatible with the very "real" world we live in and is the root cause of most of our problems.
     
  22. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    I've never quite seen such a hypocritical statement as this. Talk about calling the kettle black.


    This guy has bought into the fallacy that the anti-2A crowd is only interested in finding a compromised middle ground, and that it will stop there and everyone will be happy. He's obviously never heard them speak for themselves.
     
  23. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    Or start arguing about the Third. "If you think that the Second Amendment is outdated and irrelevant, how about we house these nice young men in your home for the next decade or so?"
     
  24. cchris

    cchris Member

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    Arguing with this guy would be no different than feeding the trolls on here. His mind is made up, so no matter what you say, you're wrong.

    I must add a tidbit about the "suicide rates" portion. In the 70's in the particular area I work, a portion of the suicides were committed with a small-caliber firearm or shotgun. As the years passed, the increase in painkillers made them a much more chosen alternative to firearms, and the number of suicides via the more painful path (firearms) decreased.
     
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