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FTE-what did I do wrong here?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by RA40, Apr 8, 2015.

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  1. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Was at the end of the session and I could feel myself getting sloppy in technique. Was thinking the thumb was riding the slide and it hindered proper cycle...??
     

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  2. ku4hx

    ku4hx Member

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    Could be a lot of things. My questions would be: Just this once? If more than one, same magazine? What ammunition? Reloaded ammunition? Brand of magazines? Brand new gun? Gun make and model? When last cleaned?
     
  3. russianbear

    russianbear member

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    Just watch it the next time you shoot,it could be a limp wrist.
     
  4. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Was just that one that hung although I did find another case that the mouth was chewed up. I suspect that one cleared when the slide came forward so it went unnoticed until checking the brass around the area.

    This SA-A1 is on the newer side with about 300 rounds total through it. Still getting worn in. Ammo is Winchester white box 230 gr ball in a Shooting Star 8 RND that has functioned well in the past. At that point it has about 90 rounds through, it not terribly dirty.

    Have become too accustomed to the 9mm so in certain instances I relax the grip. Noticed that one those lighter grip shots the brass ejects/lands in a different spot.
     
  5. Steve in Allentown

    Steve in Allentown Member

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    Was this the last round in the magazine?

    If so, you've got an extractor problem. The extractor is losing control of the empty case and with no following rounds in the magazine to push the empty case out of the ejection port it simply sits there on top of the now empty magazine.
     
  6. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    That appears to be the slide of a 1911. If i am correct in that, take limpwristing off the table. Even with a severely and deliberate limp wrist, it is difficult to induce a malfunction in a 1911.

    Next range trip, put only one round in the magazine and check Steve's theory. He's probably on to something.
     
  7. Urban_Redneck

    Urban_Redneck Member

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    I'll say the extractor needs more tension. A good test is to load the pistol, drop the magazine, and fire. Repeat 10 times, check where the brass lands, it should all be in the same general area.

    When new, my SA Range Officer did the same thing every 25 or so rounds. I added a little tension to the extractor 3500+ rounds ago, it has run like a champ ever since.

    p.s. Don't be shy with lube.
     
  8. Steve in Allentown

    Steve in Allentown Member

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    This is an excellent test of the extractor. I first learned it while taking a class with Hilton Yam. If you experience a single failure of the case not ejecting properly, you've got an extractor problem. If a case falls out the bottom of the mag well, you KNOW you have an extractor problem.
     
  9. btg3

    btg3 Member

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    I've seen crud limit the pivot movement of the extractor. Thought it needed a new one, but when it was removed/cleaned/re-installed the function was as-new.
    And this gun was regularly cleaned, but not "deep cleaned".
     
  10. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    This was about the 4'th round in the mag and following it fed-ejected fine till the slide locked back. Might pull the extractor and see if there is any crud as well. The Winchester WB seemed pretty dirty for 100 rounds. Will do the test next time it goes to the range and see.

    Thanks for the input! :)
     
  11. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Preformed some simple checks to see of the extractor was holding the round when the slide was removed. It managed that and it took a fair shake to have it drop a live round. On an empty it took a good slap. Cleaned the extractor channel and it was mildly dirty. Was also suspecting that the extractor may be clocking because now and then a case into the forehead greets me. The firing pin stop is far from a snug fit and the extractor does slightly rotate. (I'm in frequent with the 45's so I attribute any cases to the forehead as my technique.)

    Missed the last week to test it and today I didn't desire the hassle of trouble shooting (hahaha) so the Sig 1911 went instead. The Sig shoots so nice and today 220 rounds went down range without any issues. Quite the contrast to the Springfield-A1. In fairness, the Sig is used with a completely different set of magazines. Stainless Shooting Star, Wilson 47's and factory Sig. Will test those next time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2015
  12. Steve in Allentown

    Steve in Allentown Member

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    A clocking extractor can result in the extractor losing control of extracted cases. It's not always predictable and can present intermittently. An EGW oversized firing pin stop will stop the clocking. A shooter's firing technique should have nothing to do with faulty extraction or ejection.
     
  13. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Thanks Steve. :) Will look into the EGW oversized firing pin stop. Do you think changing the recoil spring may help here?
     
  14. gglass

    gglass Member

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    This is easy... You loaded your ammo backwards.




    :rolleyes:
     
  15. Steve in Allentown

    Steve in Allentown Member

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    Very unlikely. Using standard pressure factory 230gr FMJ ammo a 5" 1911 should function perfectly with a wide range of recoil spring weights. This forum's famous 1911 Tuner has a video in which he fires an entire magazine of hardball with no recoil spring in the pistol at all. Of course, the pistol doesn't load itself after it goes bang but extraction and ejection are flawless.

    An oversized firing pin stop will have to be fitted. I fit mine using common 320 grit sandpaper available from Home Depot.

    Personally, I would fit both an oversized firing pin stop and a new EGW, Wilson, Cylinder & Slide, Ed Brown, or Nighthawk extractor. But that's me. You may be able to solve the problem with just a new firing pin stop.
     
  16. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Saw a YT video of this same issue, can't recall the exact video...in that instance, the user replaced the firing pin stop and extractor. Done deal in his situation. Put in an order for a new FP stop and extractor. Should be here next Thursday. :)

    This is the first pistol that has had some characteristics to work through. I was hoping for out of box 100% functional. Oh well, minor adjustments and it should be good. :cool:

    A pic of the troubled child. ;)
     

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  17. wingman

    wingman Member

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    After 50 years of shooting I believe most malfunctions occur due to dirt at some point in system, having said that the 1911 made for and loves straight
    ball ammo.
     
  18. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    The parts arrived and checking the FP stop, the one in the gun measured out to be .4650". The Ed Brown 70 series FP stop came in at .4670". Dropped in and it did snug up better to the extractor. Will test it later in the week.
     
  19. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Strained the shoulder and the recovery took a month, still aches. :( The firing pin stop was the first attempt to remedy the extractor from clocking. I had about 5 casings to the forehead out of a 50 round box. No jams, there is a brass trial on the front of the ejection port. One of the cases got mangled at the mouth. Shooting Star mags were used or this session.

    Thoughts?
     

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  20. Steve in Allentown

    Steve in Allentown Member

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    The magazines are not causing your problem. My assumption is that you fit the firing pin stop so that the extractor does not rotate. The cases are still falling off the extractor. At this point my suggest is to put in the new extractor. You have to be concerned with bevels, deflection, and tension when fitting a new extractor.

    The extractor can cause feeding problems or extraction/ejection problems if not properly fit.

    Feeding

    To allow thw the case cannot slide freely up under the extractor areas "D", "G", and "F" in the picture below must be gently rounded. Just a little bit of rounding should work. If area "D" extends too far up the tensioning wall "C" the case rim may not be in solid contact with the extractor as it moves down the tensioning wall during cycling.

    The whole idea with rounding these areas is to allow the case to move into postion without encountering a sharp corner that could dig into it and prevent it from sliding into place.

    A side benefit of rounding area "F" is that it allows the empty case to more easily rotate up as it encounters the extractor thus insuring ejection.

    extractor_dimensions.jpg

    In the next picture you can see that the edge of the claw "B" does not touch the case anywhere. This is a perfectly fit extractor. Remove only enough material from "B" to just clear the case. Take off too much and you'll have extraction problems.

    Deflection is how much the extractor is forced outward as the case rim slides into place. Ideally, deflection should be 0.010". Some will set deflection as low as 0.005" or as much as 0.015". The amount of deflection is contolled by how close to the firing pin hole the tensioning wall is when it is not holding onto a case. This is determined by the locating pad "E". The more material you remove from the locating pad the closer to the firing pin hole the tensioning wall will be.

    With this small amount of deflection the extractor tension can be set quite high and it will function fine. Tension is simply bending the extractor so that it holds onto the case rim tightly enough to withstand the cycling forces without losing control of the case. Too much tension will impede the feeding process. Too little tension and you'll end up with the condition you're experiencing now. If you bend it too much, you can unbend it.

    The front of the extractor should not contact the barrel.

    Extractor_ProperlyFit1_zpsdb9719ab.jpg

    Extraction/Ejection

    If you can get the extractor beveled and fit as described above, you should be in good shape in terms of extraction/ejection.

    As you've already learned a clocking extractor is not your friend. The firing pin stop should not allow the extractor to move and aft or to rotate.

    So, these are the basics. There are other nuances and everyone seems to have their own favorite methods but if you can get the basics figured out, you should be able to solve your problem.


    Extractor_closeUp_zps00263b27.gif

    Extractor_case1_zpsee1f2dc9.gif
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2015
  21. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Excellent, thanks Steve! :)

    The OEM extractor looks like it has been well worked over from the factory. Shows a fair amount of polished angles. When I get some time I'll pull it out to take some measurements and test it again. The Wilson Bullet proof requires some fitting in the firing pin stop. It is undersized so it does not "drop in" without that FP channel being stoned to the proper specs. No doubt that once it is fitted the extractor is not going to move.

    The ejector has a burr on top and whomever at SA fitted it, looks sloppy. It is rounded over. Hopefully this shows in the pics. I'm getting the feeling that a trip to the 'Smith will iron it out quickly. Beginning to get beyond my comfort level. :uhoh:
     

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  22. Red Cent

    Red Cent Member

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    You want to decrease the FPS, not increase channel on the slide. Lay the FPS on 400 or higher grit on glass and rub.

    "....some fitting in the firing pin stop. It is undersized....."

    You mean the FPS is oversized.
     
  23. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    Thanks Red Cent. I wasn't sure which part to make the fitting adjustments to. With the extractor placed in the slide, the extractor channel does not line up with the FPS channel on the slide.

    As crude example, the underscore is the slide and the hyphen is the extractor when placed into the slide. This is just enough that it is a no-go for the FPS.
    ____-------_____
    ____-------_____
     
  24. Steve in Allentown

    Steve in Allentown Member

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    Well, it' may be polished but I don't see a correct bevel on the lower edge of the tensioning wall nor do I see what I would consider to be a correct bevel on the bottom edge of the hook. Honestly, it looks like a half-assed effort. I magnified the image as much as possible and the bevel on the bottom of the tensioning wall looks like it extends way too far up the side. This could be the root cause of the pistol's problem. Once the contact point with the case rim goes below the brass smear I see, the amount of force exerted on the case rim by the extractor drops significantly. Not good.

    By the way, don't use a Dremel on an extractor and you don't need to mirror polish anything on an extractor. The actual inside edge of the claw that grabs the case rim to pull the case out of the chamber should not be rounded at all.
    Anything new will take anyone out of their comfort zone. I encourage you to give it a try. All the pictures and words can be intimidating but it ain't rocket science. You can do a credible job with a popsicle stick wrapped with a small piece of 320 grit sandpaper. Go slowly, check often, it's easier to remove metal than to put it back on. Remember that you're working on a tiny machine so small dimensional changes will have a big effect. If you're really uncomfortable with this and if you can find a local 'smith who understands 1911s, ask him if he can guide your work or allow you to look over his shoulder as he works on your extractor.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  25. RA40

    RA40 Member

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    A different angle on the extractor. Appreciate the input in getting this pistol ironed out. :)

    edit
    Some pics of the Wilson extractor. With this one, how does it look relative to necessary adjustments?

    TIA.
     

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    Last edited: May 30, 2015
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