Fudd; or Gun Culture Bias

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Y'all have already demonstrated that you're not willing to make the changes necessary to really fix mental healthcare. How many of you would support comprehensive psychological and background checks for every gun owner? I reckon you'd just start screaming "2A!"

Here you show your colors. You are an authoritarian that seeks safety by denying others rights. You can only conceive that EVERY gun owner needs to have a background check and the EVERY gun owner needs to go through a battery of psychological tests etc.

The great myth propagated to ill informed individuals is that "no one could have seen this coming", and the person "just snapped"," [The shooter] was friendly etc. and I can't believe he did that."

When the rest of the story dribbles out, it almost always indicates a couple of things, cruelty to others (those who are cruel to animals also), a pattern of aggressive and threatening behavior, escalating tensions and hostilities, they tend to blame shift, signs of mental illness do not simply just rise up as signs of serious mental illness don't just suddenly arise (apart from drug or alcohol abuse) etc. The truth is that most people are simply not built that way naturally. At trials, you see a long train of circumstances that a reasonable person could conclude that the accused almost seemed destined to do something awful as the milemarkers of their life show.

When you crack the skull of an infant such as the current shooter and try to collect weapons to shoot up your AF base as this guy apparently did, the failure of the AF courtmartial was leniency when it was not deserved--he should have still been in Leavenworth.

The other LV shooter is an odder case where there is a lot of smoke--one is that the guy acted out a revenge fantasy or some deranged political statement for some reason, the other more unsettling possibility is that he did so in concert with others. Nevertheless, like the Unabomber, vague tales of threatening behavior, bragging about his criminal father, family dispute issues, the possibility that others in the family were involved in illegal activities, and the possibility that his money was illegally accrued, raise red flags. Even the Uzbek driver in NYC indicated over a period of months that he was building up to something--conflictual relationships, failures, seeking out a radical mosque in NJ etc.

If you are a criminal with convictions or arrests for violent behavior, you are a lot more likely than the general public to do violent crimes. If you have been committed to a mental health facility for having violent thoughts and actions, then you are much more likely to do violence to others, and so on.

Now, as others have suggested satirically above, a different person could conclude the whole problem is the 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. WARNING FOR SLOPPY READERS__THIS IS JUST EXAGGERATED HYPERBOLE TO ILLUSTRATE A POINT__NOT A SERIOUS PROPOSAL Now, like Jonathan Swift at his most satiric in A Modest Proposal , using your rationale for the 2nd, let us rewrite the Constitution: 4th, you have no right of privacy and can be searched or arrested at any time based on whims of the police, 5th You can be compelled to testify as any innocent person would do so and only the guilty would not want a chance to clear their name, a simple order from a judge should suffice to arrest you. 6th, you shall have a trial with the jury only composed of professional law enforcement, hearsay shall be allowed if in the favor of the state, no right to counsel as lawyers muck up everything, trial shall be by a panel of judges, no witnesses shall be sworn and no cross examination because all witnesses lie. 8th, Detention for as long as judges feel reasonable and no prisoner shall be released before trial, the punishment should fit the crime--cruel and depraved acts get cruel and depraved punishment.

Now, I suspect that the crime rate would drop if that was the case--even if just the 4th was more or less abolished. However, a lot of innocent people will lose most of their civil liberties simply to get to those criminals. In so doing, it is probable that we would find that like Lavrentia Beria (head of the secret police during the Stalin era) "Show me the man, and I’ll show you their crime.” Eventually, uprisings because of the inevitable injustices of the process will occur and the ensuing civil war will create crimes on a massive scale as if to balance the books.

Like Hobbes, you appear to be a person willing to surrender their rights and the rights of others to an all powerful government so that you can be "safe". Unfortunately for you, the United States and its Bill of Rights was based on protecting natural rights as the social contract for this society per Locke. These include the right to self defense and access to the tools to do so. If you reject the social contract, then I would suggest that there are plenty of other nations where you could be much happier that follow your wishes for society--Mexico for example has quite strict gun control laws or Canada which also does so.

I leave with the words of Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
 
One day, when us liberals are legally repealing your right to own assault weapons, I'll look at this thread and remember why you can't be trusted with assault weapons.

Uh, dude what makes you think you own and define the liberal cause. I firmly believe in everyone's rights to be who they want to be and act however they desire with two caveats: your behavior cannot cause harm to others & no one has to approve of you (meaning do as you please but I cannot be forced to emotionally or financially support you). That is true freedom.

Remember our government doesn't grant rights to anybody. Rights already exist. Our government simply recognizes them. (Laws are mostly such-and-such is restricted. If no law exists, then by definition it is not illegal.)

So your statement about 'trusting' people with something is literally wrong. That assumes an all-powerful ruler is merely allowing people to do something. My prayer for you and everyone else is we never regress to that state.
 
Rocket started this thread with an innocent question on how to offer contrarian views without retribution. I, as well as others, gave advice on how to engage in robust debate. What I have witnessed from Rocket’s responses is “Failure to Communicate”.

However, there is value to be harvested. The discussion opened insights into a mind much different than mine. This mindset is rigid; it is not persuaded by logic, facts, reason, or even common sense. The danger is that there are others who have similar mindsets. I can only hope that these individuals are in the minority.
 
One day, when us liberals are legally repealing your right to own assault weapons, I'll look at this thread and remember why you can't be trusted with assault weapons.

Why did you swear an oath that covers a right you so clearly despise? Do me a favor and renounce that oath.
 
The problem with the O.P's original question is that those who I would label as "Gun grabbers" really are NOT interested in a rational and logical debate. They usually start off appearing to be the victim, as it were, feeling as if they are just being misunderstood; their point of view being taken "out of context" or some such claim. I even read the O.P.s original post and was willing to hear him out. I DO believe that we can learn something from others with differing points of view if we can open our minds enough to understand WHY they believe what they do, however...

Then the truth and real motivation comes out in a moment of frustration:

"One day, when us liberals are legally repealing your right to own assault weapons, I'll look at this thread and remember why you can't be trusted with assault weapons."

I have never met a gun grabber who is truly willing to listen to any other point of view. Their pious pleas for understanding a just a wedge to get their foot in the door and spout whatever indoctrination they have been "Educated" with.
 
One day, when us liberals are legally repealing your right to own assault weapons, I'll look at this thread and remember why you can't be trusted with assault weapons.
You prove with your every post that you are simply an ignorant, closed minded liberal.
I think it is safe to say that the majority here are NRA members.
Would you like to take a guess at how many mass shooters in the last half century where NRA members?
I'll give you a hint ZERO.
 
One day, when us liberals are legally repealing your right to own assault weapons, I'll look at this thread and remember why you can't be trusted with assault weapons.
That's simply another one of your ridiculous statements where the logic (Or the lack thereof) doesn't compute. Simply because we believe in our gun rights, and understand that taking guns away from law abiding citizens will never stop mass killings, doesn't make us untrustworthy.

And that other BS of yours about only wanting to reduce the murders to a lesser level is also convoluted. Typical anti BS. We only want this, then tomorrow you only want that, then the next day you only want this, until it's all gone.

But at least, in the face of all the logic thrown back at you, have acknowledged your goal and what drives you. I could respect that much more than your deceit while posing as a sheep among sheep when you are a wolf.

But of course now I can't respect you at all, since you only came clean in the face of all the answers. You are deceitful and walk among us posing as a gun enthusiast who just want "reasonable" gun control. Oh look, say the antis, he's a gun owner, but he agrees with us on this. BS.
 
Rocketmedic,

Let me tell you, and anyone else who cares to read, something about me.

I have lived on this earth for almost 62 years. I have enjoyed the love of a good woman for almost 40 years. I have sought to serve my Savior, Jesus Christ, to the best of my ability, and led by His Spirit, for almost 46 years.

I have enjoyed a good life. I have raised my children, enjoyed grandchildren, worked hard, paid my taxes, obeyed the laws, served my nation in uniform, honorably, and traveled the world. I have tried to be a good neighbor, and have tried to bless the widow and the orphan from out of the blessings that God has given me.

I would like nothing more than to live out my life in peace, and have my children and grandchildren close my eyes in death.

But, and pay heed here, I will not register my firearms. I will not go along with any turn-in or confiscation schemes, and I will shoot any jack booted thug who attempts to seize my "freedom teeth".

I believe that there are millions more just like me. Now, tell me how you plan to carry out your plans.
 
@Rocketmedic

Bud.

Chill.

Come on, man, you cannot read all this board has to offer and still propose the things you are proposing.
You have been here for years... and yet... still haven't changed YOUR viewpoint despite being presented with compelling arguments/facts/logic/reason.

You want to reduce the number of casualties at a mass shooting event.
WE ALL DO.
But what WE understand is that:
1. Mass shootings represent a "Statistically insignificant" number of injuries and deaths in the US.
2. Criminals don't care about gun laws (exhibit A: Paris shooting using full auto AKs)
AND
3. Someone, at some point, will have to shoot the SOB shooting at us. May as well be one of us. So quit trying to disarm us.


The difference between you and most of us is that we have adopted a "live and let live" philosophy to firearms:
Don't like guns (or semi's)?
Easy! Don't own one.

Your philosophy is: "You have to live like me... or else."
I don't like this gun or that gun, so you cannot own them or else I will penalize you with law enforcement/jail/fines.


You claim to be a liberal.

You are not.

You are a leftist.

Please watch some of Dave Rubin's (a liberal) interviews with people to understand the difference.
 
Maybe we should look back in time to the Clinton Administration.
Federal assault weapons ban
One year after signing the Brady Law, White House lobbying also played a role in the passage of the 1994 Crime Bill, which included the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, commonly known as the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. The law banned certain semi-automatic firearms with two or more specific design features, and also prohibited the manufacture of ammunition magazines that held over ten rounds.

Although initially heralded as a victory for Clinton and Democrats in congress, it proved costly. The bill energized the NRA and Republican base, and contributed to the Republican takeover of both houses in the 1994 mid-term elections. Many Democrats who had supported Clinton's gun control measures were ousted, including Speaker Tom Foley. Clinton acknowledged that he had hurt Democrats with his victories.

Clinton continued to push further regulations of firearms in his second term, especially after the Columbine High School massacre. Little success came out of his efforts as Republicans controlled congress during this time, and a majority opposed any further gun control. The House voted to overturn the assault weapons ban in 1996, but the Senate failed to take up the issue.

The anti gun crowd got their way and Clinton working with lies and deceit got his way but it came with a cost. Fortunately Clinton's so called "Assault Weapons Ban" included a sunset clause and it expired. However, when the anti-gun crowd went to the CDC (Center for Disease Control) looking for support the results after 10 years were a big disappointment. The problem being the guns targeted, the so called "assault weapons" were responsible for less than 1% of the gun related crime committed in America. Less than 1%! Yet, Clinton and his allies claimed to the American people an assault weapons ban was a great solution. They knew when this was signed into law it would fail but they sold a warm fuzzy feeling of safety. Today less than 2% of the gun crime committed in America is committed using so called "assault weapons". However, when such a gun is used for a mass murder then it becomes big news and all of the anti-gun crowd drag out their little soap box. I live in Cleveland, Ohio where we have a higher murder rate than Chicago based on population and can't recall the last time an "assault weapon" was used in the commission of a crime here. Due to their size they simply are not a good choice to rob a bank or use in common street crime.

Every time the anti gun lobby has been given an inch they take a yard and I am done agreeing to give things up. Don't like guns? Then I suggest not owning one and please do not tell me what I should or should not own.

Ron
 
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