Full auto AR-15 vs M16

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Zak Smith...

What I'm saying is that most REAL machine guns (belt feds for example) are operating on an open bolt system. I assume you know what open bolt operation is. Now, when you pull the trigger to trip the sear, the bolt slams forward, chambers a round and locks on to the chamber. The bolt carrier has a fixed firing pin so when it's moving forward to lock the bolt head on to the chamber, the fixed firing pin will hit the primer and shoot the bullet. You see, there was NO hammer involved.

The semi auto belt feds that are approved by the ATF have a totally different operating system. It fires from a CLOSED BOLT, thus the firing pin ISN'T fixed, and requires a hammer to be installed for the gun to work.

What I was asking is, wouldn't it be very difficult to convert a ATF approved semi auto MG into a real version full auto MG?

For example, a semi auto M60, into a real version full auto M60.
 
Regular MGs usually fire from the open bolt position and they dont have strikers/hammers.
[...]
What I'm saying is that most REAL machine guns are operating on an open bolt system.
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Except the M16, the Sig 550-series, the HK G36, the G3, CETME, FAL, M14, and every modern battle and assault rifle. And the HK MP5 and UMP. I'll grant you that most beltfeds and pre-1980 subguns fire from an open bolt, however.

Isn't it impossible [...]

wouldn't it be very difficult to convert [...]
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It comes down to machined metal parts and springs. A circa 1900 machine shop has everything required to modify and/or fabricate the differences for any of them. For example, the "registered" part of an M2 50 cal machinegun is simply a stamped and cut metal side-plate.

What stops people from doing so is that it is illegal.

-z
 
If the SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, you might be better served with an accurate semi-auto that is reliable rather than a full-auto with questionable reliability.

Also, ammo might be at a premium. You have to make every shot count.
 
Mechanically, it's pretty simple, AFAIK, and the internal differences between an M16 and an AR aren't vast (I read someplace that there's another pin and some more junk inside)
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Actually, the differences between an M16 and AR15 receiver are indeed vast, IIRC. The AR15 receiver is narrower inside (or is it vice-versa?) and must be ground out extensively to make room. New holes must be drilled in exactly the right place for a ton of new parts. Plus it's only legal if you're a Class II manufacturer. It would be cheaper, easier, and safer to just get a transferrable M16.

There are also "things" which can convert an AR15 to full-auto only rather than select-fire, but those are of very questionable reliability and, once again, only legal for Class II manufactures. I won't talk about them in any more detail than that.

You'd be better off learning to bump-fire if you want to shoot fast.

Must... resist... making... comment... about... Eurohacker's... parents... needing... to buy... him... a gun... first...

Darn.
 
RyanM: if it were as simple as that I'd have tons of guns by now. I live in Sweden, remember? :) I am working on it...

Btw, are there any companies making new semi-auto versions of military machine guns? Would be neat to have a semi-auto Ma Deuce... And one that doesn't cost a fortune.
 
Eurohacker, for some reason your line of questioning makes me nervous. Be it full auto conversions, silencers, machine guns, out of country transfers, FFL & C&R transfers, or even conversing in a chat room with a supposed female who insists she is really eighteen, you seem to consistently allude to the illegal or potentiality of illegal actions regarding firearms. Half of the subjects you have begun (do a thread check) have involved illegalities.First of all the conversation begins in generalities. Then it becomes more specific. Next is a private message to discuss it in a less public and more specific manner. Then a impassioned plea for assistance becaue of lack of experience, no resources, need your expertise, flattery, poor Swedish kid, ect. Then a violation of Federal Firearms Laws and real problems. Not that I need consensus, but others have sensed this also. Members of this forum, please be careful. If it looks like a duck.......


rk
 
Roadkill: are you on crack? I have not asked anyone on this board for help in committing illegalities. What is it with you yanks? A person is curious of non-mainstream things, and he is branded a potential terrorist or whatever... Information on its own is never bad. Just like how guns don't kill people on their own.
 
What is it with you yanks?
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It's simple, really. There are several reasons why the US firearms laws aren't yet as draconian as yours, but one if them is that we're smart enough not to tweak the tail of the tiger when it's not needed. It's a skill learned with age, perhaps?

You want info on this stuff - use Google. But don't ask folks treading on the thin ice of controlled-yet-still-legal firearms ownership to discuss things that could, if followed to their conclusion, land them in jail and lose them their rights to keep/bear arms.
 
RK -- I suspect our young friend is just in the grips of teenagus masculinus, a condition manifesting in a sizable amount of the species for some number of years. Symptoms include a fascination with all things that go bang, particulary of the verboten variety. I'm sure you never asked similar questions at 16, right? ;)

That said euro.. if you're that interested, there's all kinds of technical manuals and such on the web. If there is a gunsmithy near you, you might even be able to persuade them to take you on as an apprentice.. do their grunt work in exchange for some education. Just dress neatly, be polite, and act responsible when you introduce yourself, and you might be surprised to see how much the ol' coots are willing to teach you (of the legal variety, I mean). Stay away from the jailbait questions and mouthing off on the latest "true fact" from a gunboard or magazine, and you'll prolly do quite well. :)

-K
 
I suspect our young friend is just in the grips of teenagus masculinus, a condition manifesting in a sizable amount of the species for some number of years. Symptoms include a fascination with all things that go bang, particulary of the verboten variety. I'm sure you never asked similar questions at 16, right?
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Bingo! I just wish eurohacker could hit the range to get it out of his system! :)
 
Actually, the differences between an M16 and AR15 receiver are indeed vast, IIRC. The AR15 receiver is narrower inside (or is it vice-versa?) and must be ground out extensively to make room. New holes must be drilled in exactly the right place for a ton of new parts. Plus it's only legal if you're a Class II manufacturer. It would be cheaper, easier, and safer to just get a transferrable M16.
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Techically, "AR15" doesn't mean semi-auto, as there are some very early AR15s (from before the military adopted the M16) that are full-auto. Some still exist as transferrables, and are more expensive than M16's because they're C&R eligible.

As for the difference in recievers, some AR15 receivers are narrower in the area above the selector, to prevent installation of an auto sear even if the auto sear hole is drilled. Some AR15 receivers are the correct dimension. The only other difference is the auto sear pin hole, which is right above the trigger in full-auto guns.

There are also "things" which can convert an AR15 to full-auto only rather than select-fire, but those are of very questionable reliability and, once again, only legal for Class II manufactures. I won't talk about them in any more detail than that.
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Unregistered "pre-81" drop-in auto sears are illegal to possess with a semi-auto AR15, but there are also registered drop-in auto sears that are legally considered machine guns in and of themselves. Drop one of those in a semi-auto AR15, and the whole gun is legally considered a machine gun while the RDIAS is installed. Remove it, and the gun goes back to being a title I gun. Functionally, a drop-in auto sear also requires M16 fire control parts.
 
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Techically, "AR15" doesn't mean semi-auto, as there are some very early AR15s (from before the military adopted the M16) that are full-auto. Some still exist as transferrables, and are more expensive than M16's because they're C&R eligible.
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A C&R eligible Full Auto AR15?

Pass the bong - I want some of whatever you're smokin'...
 
Back to the Class II question, if you folks don't mind:

If I were to obtain a Class II license, would I be able to buy restricted parts at "normal" prices, or would I still have to pay the artificially inflated prices for things like M16 auto sears (not the drop-in sears), or Thompson receivers, or barrells, etc?

Also, would I be required to do all the machine work myself, or is that something that could legally be contracted out?

The reason I'm intrigued by a Class II license is that years back I sold a full-auto Thompson for about $2000, and there's no way I can afford to buy one at today's prices.
 
The "restricted" parts themselves are cheap and already available. You can see many full auto parts kits listed in Shotgun News. If you own an NFA weapon, you can buy the parts kits and have spares around. The inflated prices are when you start talking about the registered component. Whatever is registered (receiever, sear, DIAS, etc) is what commands the premium. There is now a significant difference in the prices of pre-86 and post-86 dealer samples too.

You can contract out the machine work and any other tasks you want. You just have to put it all together.

The problem is that if you are merely talking machineguns, you will spend a lot more money getting all of the assorted licenses, permits, stamps, etc. to make machineguns than you will in buying a transferrable machinegun. Even then, if you give up the SOT, you have to get rid of the machineguns, unless they are pre-86 samples. You MUST create a legitimate business to make NFA weapons or ATF will go after you.
 
You guys ought to cut eurohacker some slack - I know I sure started my firearms interest with military lookalikes (compounded by, initally, anti parents), and it branched out to the poing where it is today - with my list of next to get populated by trapdoors, krags, springfields and martini henrys. My collection is a testament to my ever aging interest.

Must be bad to have that over there though - I guess time will tell if he eventually changes his research interest to milsurps.

OTOH, most of us have enough stress in our lives without some of the questions you have posed, euro. Please make use of the search tool and read up.
 
By some of the the replies here you'd think the anti's had won. :scrutiny:

I just love how the word "illegal" is tossed up when it comes to certain firearms on a firearms forum no less. :rolleyes:

These are not "illegal" weapons, only restricted(read infringed) unless you have the time, money and patience to pay(for permits) to a right you should have free of charge. And don't live in the wrong state. :mad:
 
I just love how the word "illegal" is tossed up when it comes to certain firearms on a firearms forum no less.

These are not "illegal" weapons, only restricted(read infringed) unless you have the time, money and patience to pay(for permits) to a right you should have free of charge. And don't live in the wrong state.
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Every use of the work "illegal" I found in this thread is properly qualified. Some even went ahead and discussed Class II mfgrs and Class III dealers including post-86 samples.

Discussing how to do something illegal (e.g. create an unregistered MG when not a Class II mfgr) is not a good idea.

-z
 
Euro hacker is in sweden. He probably has never even seen a gun, unless he's over 18 and has done a year in the army.

As a swede living in canada (which itself still has strict gun laws, not as bad as sweden's though) I envy you americans. the laws here suck. Can canadian illegal immigrants in america find work as easy as the mexican ones? i speak good english !!!
 
As a swede living in canada (which itself still has strict gun laws, not as bad as sweden's though) I envy you americans. the laws here suck. Can canadian illegal immigrants in america find work as easy as the mexican ones? i speak good english !!!
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Heh. Converting over to being an American citizen isn't that bad. High taxes, corrupt politicians, plenty of loonies on both ends of the political sprectrum. Uhm, actually, I suppose the US isn't THAT different from Canada. Except we pronounce "about" correctly. :neener:


We happen to have better gun laws. That has to count for something.
 
buying the pieces and putting one together yourself will get you 20 years in jail.
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buying the pieces and NOT putting them together will get you the same. atf considers it constructive possesion. you'll see ads in the shotgun news for drop-in auto sears, usually about $250 or so, many people believe this is an atf ploy as one would have no use for the part except manufacture of a mg, so why would someone pay $250 for a paper weight. remember, the reciever has to be registered as a mg.

second, there IS a big difference between ar-15's and m-16's. the bolt carrier, fire control group and auto sear are all different, but like it was mentioned earlier, can be had pretty cheap. i imagine the places that sell those parts want to see a copy of your atf paperwork, though i'm not sure. the hard part of converting an ar to an m-16 is that the hollow for the auto sear isn't there in the ar-15's lower receiver. one would need a machine shop to mill out the pocket and i imagine it would have to be fairly precise. the myth of easily converting sa to fa in any weapon is a fallacy perpetrated (illegally, in some cases) by 60min and their ilk. there are some weapons you can get to slam-fire pretty easily but you won't be shooting them for long.
 
Class II manufacturer

With respect to getting a Class II license to manufacture NFA weapons, HKmp5sd said:
You MUST create a legitimate business to make NFA weapons or ATF will go after you.
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Absolutely. It is illegal to get a Class II license to make firearms for yourself, just as it is illegal to get a Class III (NFA dealer) for the purpose of buying firearms for your personal collection/use. Class II is only for people who legitimately intend to manufacture NFA items for sale to others. People have been prosecuted for abusing it.

As others have pointed out, it is much cheaper and safer to just buy a legally transferable full NFA weapon. Transferable subguns can be found for as little as $2,500 without too much trouble. They're excellent investments, too. Just like real estate, they're not making any more of them, so appreciation is pretty much guaranteed.
 
You guys ought to cut eurohacker some slack
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I don't think so. My radar tells me something isn't right. Frankly, I'm not buying the "poor kid in Sweden" bit. For all we know, he's a reporter doing a story on how easy it is to buy/manufacture firearms illegally, or an operative for one of the gun-ban groups.

It is bad practice to advise anyone how to break/evade the law. It's much worse to do so in a public forum, and with someone you don't know. You never know who's reading these posts. Even if Eurohacker is legit, criminals and terrorists could read these posts and use the information to do some very bad things.

As others have pointed out, the web is full of information, and there are lots of good search engines. When it comes to discussion of illegal activities, let he who wants to know figure it out for himself.
 
Father Knows Best- Where did anyone tell him (or anyone else) how to circumvent U.S. law? So far all I see are straight answers regarding the legal way to do any question he has asked. :confused:
 
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