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Game & antipersonnel rifle?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by SkyChaney, Feb 19, 2006.

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  1. SkyChaney

    SkyChaney Member

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    I’m looking for a rifle that will work well for hunting deer, and also serve as an antipersonnel weapon in major emergencies. Our family has just collected a year’s worth of food and supplies… for emergencies like the bird flu. I need a gun for both hunting and protecting the family.

    I’m not sure whether I need a semiautomatic or not? I’d like a gun that operates on relatively cheap ammo, so that we can do plenty of practicing with it. I suppose I’ll need a scope. Which guns may work for us... without breaking the bank? Any experiences or knowledge would be appreciated!
     
  2. lawson

    lawson Member

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    if i had to choose one rifle for both deer hunting and defense, i would go with a lever action .30-30. not exactly cheap to shoot, but not very expensive either. you can get a marlin 336 drilled and tapped for a scope mount.
     
  3. Headless Thompson Gunner

    Headless Thompson Gunner Member

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    Do you have fantasies about playing Rambo?

    If not, then just about any quality hunting weapon would work for you. A lever action would work well. So would a good 12 guage shotgun with a short (security) barrel and a long (hunting) barrel. So would a standard scoped hunting rifle.

    Being able to hit your target is what matters. Five quick hits from a .30-06 or .30-30 will convince any attacker (or group of attackers) to leave you alone.
     
  4. roscoe

    roscoe Member

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    I second the 30-30. Very handy, very reliable, you can get off shots durn fast with practice, with the new Hornady ammunition they say it is effective to 300 yards, and it does not scare people like a battle rifle would. Ammo is very available.

    I recommend getting a peep sight and you are good to go. I prefer Winchester, but plenty others like Marlin. You can get a good used one for $200 or less.

    The main thing is to practice with it. You should know your weapon intimately. If you do that, the actual choice of weapons becomes less important.
     
  5. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    I (respectfully) take issue with those who recommend a 30-30 or 30-06 when price of ammo is stated as an issue. I've yet to see cheap bulk 30-30, and supplies of mil-surp 30-06 are steadily dwindling.

    Have you considered a military surplus bolt-action rifle?

    A good-quality, tough-as-nails rifle like the Moisin Nagant can be had for $75 to $150 in many parts of the country. Military-surplus ammo (for target practice) can be had for maybe 15c a shot (vice 50c a shot for 30-30), and hunting ammo is also available. Said rifles come equipped with iron sights, so scope not a necessity.

    If you plan to fight off hordes of communist zombies, not the best rifle. But if you want an inexpensive, incredibly durable rifle that takes affordable ammo, is satisfactory for hunting, has killed millions in several wars, and costs less than most scopes cost, check out a Moisin Nagant.

    If curious, run a search (hit Search button at top of forum screen) to search for many, many past threads on the Nagant rifle.

    Welcome aboard THR! -MV
     
  6. Zerstoerer

    Zerstoerer Member

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    HK G3/91 in .308 Win
    Accurate, 20 rd Mags., reliable...
     
  7. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    I think a Ruger mini 14 or mini 30 would fit your bill nicely. I know .223 is not a very good deer rifle, but in a emergency type situation, I think a shot to the neck would work ( thats my guess, Im no expert hunter.). Also, a good milsurp like the Mauser or the Nagant would work too. You can get a FAL for a decent price, but .308 is a bit more expensive.
     
  8. mrmeval

    mrmeval Member

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    That would be .308, 8mm or one of the Russian ones, the ammo is cheap and allows practice. I will have a .223 AR15 for defense, again the ammo is cheap and allows practice. A pistol or revolver in 9mm or .45 as they are the more common ones and ammo is less expensive. Also a .22lr rifle and long barreled pistol for hunting small game. Having something like a Thompson contenteder that can use ammo aquired after the stores are looted would be nice.

     
  9. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    12 guage.

    Buy a shotgun. With a 12 guage, you have versatility. Small shot for small game, which is far more plentiful than deer for feeding yourself. Buckshot for two legged varmints, slugs or buckshot for deer when you can find them. If you plan on buying more than one arm, specialize. If buying only one, get a shottie.
     
  10. epijunkie67

    epijunkie67 Member

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    First, realize you are asking for a short answer in an area that has a LOT of differing opinion. You have several options that would fit your requirements and it may take you some time to explore them.

    Semiauto vs nonsemiauto? Semi auto usually has less felt recoil and a higher volume of fire for a given round. I.E. shooting a semiauto .308 usually has less recoil than a bolt action .308 as a general rule. Most people buying a gun for self defense want high volume of fire and low recoil, like in an AR15. Most people wanting to hunt want more "punch" than you get from the .223 (in an AR15) and you don't need a high volume of fire.

    Do you hunt already? Have you ever shot guns before? Are you wanting to start hunting on a regular basis or is this just going to be a gun to "hunt with if things get really bad"? These are important questions to answer that can help guide you to a good rifle for you.

    Oh, and the shotgun. Usually considered the best "general purpose" weapon you could get since you can hunt anything from mouse to moose with it. It does have it's own limitations though. Stiff recoil, limited range, heavy ammo, that kind of thing. Again, I'd need to ask you some questions before I could direct you down that road.
     
  11. jacketch

    jacketch Member

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    Find a good SKS. Innexpensive, semiauto, the ammo is readily available and relatively cheap, it can be scoped and would be excellent for hunting or defense.

    That said, if things got so bad I had to hunt to feed my family, I would use a bow and/or snares primarily due to the fact that they are quieter and don't require cartridges.
     
  12. georgeduz

    georgeduz Member

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    every american should own a 30-30.i was told its was the law,or should be.
     
  13. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    I've always been of the view that the Winchester 94 in .30-30 would be ideal in the role you describe. Rugged mechanism, man-accurate out to about 300 yards, and deer/bear/boar capable out to about 250 yards (especially with the latest high tech ammo and a good aperture sight). Standard type ammo is very cheap, though not mil surplus cheap. In an emergency, you have six fast rounds at the ready, and you can use tactical relaods at will, i.e., you can stick another in the mag, regardless of it not being empty, unlike, for example, the M1 Garand. Buy yourself an ammo belt, and fill it full of .30-30, and get one for the butt stock too, and, from a cover position, you'd be a formidable threat to any band of outlaws.

    Less handy rifle, but a semi auto with some close range hunting ability would be the SKS. The ammo for it is usually cheaper than .30-30 due to mili surp being available. It's a heavy and awkward gun, though, compared to the Winchester 94, and generally less accurate with worse trigger and sights. The SKS, however, would be more ideal for defending against gangs of looters, and less ideal for hunting, and/or going on foot.
     
  14. redneck2

    redneck2 Member

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    Lots of answers, few which may be correct

    first, where do you live?? If it's Indiana for example, you can't use (legally) a rifle to deer hunt. Either pistol or shotgun

    second, if you know that little about firearms, you'll probably either need help from a mentor or a lot of trigger time on your own

    third, if you're hunting for survival, a shotgun would probably be as or more useful since you could use it for small game as well as deer

    a centerfire will be expensive to shoot (relative to a rimfire), will beat you up a lot worse, and unless you practice anyone with any experience will get the better of you in no time.

    This is kind of like saying "I want to run the Daytona 500 this afternoon...how do I learn to drive a stock car in 4 hours??"

    If you're serious, get a .22, get some basic firearm training, and then practice

    If you're dead set on starting out with a rifle, SKS fits your bill perfectly
     
  15. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    During an emergency breakdown of civilization, I don't think he's going to be thinking too much about the game laws.
    Yes, that is a given. Practice, practice, practice, and you will become deadly on game or man.
    You can hunt anything from small game to moose with a .30-30 too, and shotgun ammo is a lot bulkier than .30-30 ammo, which becomes important if he has to take to the back country with only what he can carry.
    Relative to rimfire?!!! I hardly think rimfire is an appropriate recommendation for his needs.
    Nothing was said about four hours, but four hours at the range with a .30-30 over a month would be enough to acquire adequate skills for his purposes. He is not anticipating taking on the Delta Force, but roving gangs of, almost certainly, inner city folks looking to steal food and whatever else they can find. These folks will not likely present with a whole lot of rifles, or skill in their tactical use.
    A .22 is great if you live somewhere where you can just step into the great outdoors for an afternoon of plinking. Great way to develop skills, but if he's going to be learning at the range, a good .30-30 is fine. Most skills development with a centerfire rifle is done with dry fire drills, not live fire. Live fire should make up only about 10% of your time expenditure in skill development with a centerfire rifle. A .22 is not necessary, even though I know that a lot of people like to say that it is.
    It could be pressed into a hunting role, but it is not ideal for it, right out of the box. It is really not ideal for it, even after some work. Food acquisition would likely be the primary concern in any attempt to survive in the wild. That said, the .30-30 lever action is more than capable of holding its own in defense against roving packs of looters, if any fire discipline is used at all. Semi-autos have a tendency to discourage good fire discipline. Most folks, armed with a semi-auto, in their first real life encounter with human threats, tend to blow off all their ammo without hitting anything within just a few seconds. This is far less likely with a .30-30 lever action. You will make each shot count. If some speed is needed, though, you can still work that lever fast.
     
  16. shermacman

    shermacman Member

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    I don't want to hijack this thread, but what is it about TEOTWAWKI and SHTF scenarios? No one in the US has starved to death since the Civil War. The only people who go to bed hungry each night are rich suburban girls who want to look like Brittany Spears used to look like. China just announced the seventh person who has died from Bird Flu. Seven. Out of a population of 1.2 billion people we have a grand total of seven people dead.

    If the food supply collapses there will be no squirrel and no deer to hunt in about two days. Every edible dog and cat will be eaten by the end of the first week. We have an agricultural system for a reason.

    Aside from the philosophical fun of a mental game, what is this about?
     
  17. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    You are wrong on so many levels. We do not live with a guarantee of civilization, law and order. This is just a thin veneer which can be stripped away in a matter of days. The bird flu is not the only threat to that veneer. If the food supply collapses, the vast majority will not be heading for the back country, but for the suburbs to loot. That's where you don't want to be when it happens. Only the few and the prepared will be heading AWAY from the trappings of civilization to ride it out. Most will want to stay where the "good people from the government" can "help" them, i.e., round them up and watch them die of thirst, disease and starvation, shooting those who dare to attempt an escape. This will be the fate of most, enforced by the military/police. You didn't learn camping and outdoor survival skills in the Boy Scouts only because it's fun to do.
     
  18. SkyChaney

    SkyChaney Member

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    Thank You All!

    I just read through all the answers to my question about getting a good dual purpose hunting and antipersonnel rifle. Wow! Lots to sort through.

    Guns that were suggested are: 30-30 lever action, 12 Gauge shotgun, SKS, Mini-14, Moisin Nagant, and .308 .

    What about scope vs open or peep sight? What should I consider when making this decision?

    By way of background, I haven't done much shooting lately. When younger, was a decent NRA marksman with a .22... and hunted rabbits and coyotes. I'll definitely need some range practice with whatever I get.

    Regarding my recent attempt to prepare for emergencies... I'm not a Mormon or survivalist... I've just been reading about the potential for bird flu (check the National Geo 3 months ago). It may never come... but if it does... there will be big problems headed our way. Also, there are the risks or nuclear and bio-terrorism. I figured that I've been spending thousands of dollars on every kind of insurance we buy... why not insure my family with a year's worth of food, supplies, and a decent gun to protect us.

    Here's another question. One person suggested that hunting deer may be near impossible... because everyone else will have killed them off in an emergency. We live in the desert, so there aren't big herds of deer out here anyway. Our local deer season lasts about 10 days. And I'm not an experienced deer hunter. Would it make more sense for me to plan on shooting rabbits? There are plenty of them.

    If I wasn't planning on shooting deer, but rather small game. What would be a good small game and antipersonnel rifle?

    I want to thank you all for your suggestions and willingness to help us out!
     
  19. The Real Hawkeye

    The Real Hawkeye member

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    If you get one with a scope, just make sure it also has iron sights, so that when the scope breaks you can just take it off. Make sure you sight in the iron sights before you mount the scope.
    Yes, rabbit, squirrel, coon, possum, most small animals are edible. Now you are talking more of something like a 20 guage or a .22, though. As between the two, the 20 guage probably has the slight edge. The 20 is superior to the 12 in a survival gun because you can carry lots more rounds with you, and it is nearly equally effective on game and equally available for ammo purchase at gun shops. Slugs or buck shot could be used for the occasional big game animal, and for two legged predators, smaller shot for birds and small game.
    Like I said above, now you are in the realm where a 20 guage shotgun might be the best choice. Pump action with a ghost ring sight would be a good idea.
    PS, you might also want to consider a little Marksman .177 caliber pellet rifle. They are extremely lightweight, accurate, and effective on small game (with a scope, they are extremely deadly on small game out to thirty paces or more). Also very quiet (don't want to attract attention, if you can help it), and you can carry a life-time supply of ammo on your person, if you choose. This could be your game getter, and you could carry an accurate and powerful handgun for defense and the occasional deer or boar. A revolver can be loaded with shot shells, as well, for close quarter anti-snake rounds. Not as crazy as it seems. As a boy, I had no problem hunting up piles of squirrel and rabbit with my air gun. Crack of dawn provides tremendous opportunities in this regard. Get there an hour before dawn, get hidden and stay still. You will be amazed at the small game opportunities you will see.
     
  20. GD

    GD Member

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    If you don't want to spend much and have a small collection, I would start with a SKS and a Mosin Nagant. The SKS is great for close up and high rates of fire. The Mosin Nagant is great for longer ranges. For game and other targets at 125 yards or less, neither rifle needs a scope. A scope on an SKS is almost worthless unless you have vision problems.
    If you are in an urban area, a shotgun is a much better defensive weapon than a rifle. It is also great for bird hunting.
    There are other equally fine firearms, but for ammo pricing and price of firearm, the SKS and Mosin Nagant can't be beat. You should be able to get both rifles and a 1000 rounds of ammo for both for under $400 at any decent gunshow. Last show I was at in Wichita I saw the following OTD prices: $100 Yugo SKS, $70 M91/30 Mosin, $140 7.62x39 ammo per 1K, and $62 for 880 rounds 7.62x54 ammo. When you have more funds available, stock up on ammo and practice a lot! :)
    Also, plant a garden and make sure you have a good water source if you are concerned about upheavel. In the case of SHTF, you will be a target if you are planning to go out with a firearm and look for those resources.
     
  21. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    Why are you limiting yourself to one gun? And everybody here collaborating?
    Unless you are planning to pack out cross country, you can have what the newspaper would call an arsenal at no great cost. And wouldn't you want your family (spouse and larger kids) to be armed, too?

    Depending on your surroundings, a military surplus or conventional hunting rifle or a shotgun would do all the home defense you can expect to handle on your own and would kill any game around. A rifle AND a shotgun, see above.

    Poachers kill deer with .22s with few complaints, and nobody plundering wants to be shot with anything. Ammo is inexpensive and compact, a 5000 round case doesn't take up much storage space. Cheap practice until civilization falls and you have to hoard your supply for game, defense, and barter. (Jeff Cooper thinks well of ammo as money in crisis.)

    Handguns are limited in power and require more skill for results, but are portable enough to have with you ALL the time when there is risk of assault. Are you going to take your MN rifle to the outhouse (After the utilities fail?) Makarovs aren't expensive.

    A thousand bucks would buy you a Communist surplus or Walmart economy rifle, a pump shotgun, a Ruger or CZ rimfire, a Makarov pistol, and a starting supply of ammunition for each.
     
  22. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    Here's how I solved the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI long-gun problem:

    • First I got a 10/22 - shoots cheap ammo and is eminently useful for small game hunting.
    • Then I built a parkerized chopped Remington 1100 shotgun for game and close-in social work.
    • Then I got a Norinco SKS for social work using cheap ubiquitous ammo.
    • Then I decided that I needed something more rugged and more powerful than the SKS, so I got a couple of chopped-down Enfield No4Mk1's.
    • Then I decided that I needed something for social work that shot both cheap/available ammo and that would take detachable hi-cap magazines, so I built an AR in 5.56 NATO.
    • Then I decided I needed something with more hunting appeal to keep Da Man from thinking I was too much of a wack job if they ever rummaged thru the trunk of my car, so I built a scoutified 30-30 Marlin.
    • Then I decided that the Enfields in 303R were too limiting in ammo availability so I bought a chopped-up Ishy 2A in 308 and scoutified it.
    • Then I decided that I needed a more accurate medium-range hunting rifle, so I built a couple of 7.62x39 AR's.
    • Then I decided that the 10/22 was too fancy for long-term use back-country, so I built a couple of chopped Marlin 25's.
    • Then I decided that pistol-caliber carbines could be useful if they took the same ammo and mags as my sidearm, so I got a Marlin Camp 45 that uses my 1911 magazines.
    In other words, I still haven't solved the question yet but I'm having fun trying. ;)
     
  23. MatthewVanitas

    MatthewVanitas Member

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    If you're looking to ease into this, a good .22 might be just the ticket.

    A Marlin 60 costs $99 here in Texas, a Ruger 10/22 runs $130. Both are US-made rifles of great reputation, and will probably outlast you with basic maintenance. Cheap ammo runs around 1.5c per round. Don't buy a scope right away, get used to the iron sights, and you might find that you really don't need a scope for your purposes.

    Check your local game laws, follow the procedure, and go add some of those local rabbits you mentioned to your cookpot. Should be a great practical drill.

    Should something apocalyptic occur between your .22 purchase and your future rifle purchase, a .22LR is far, far better than no gun at all. If you're scaring off one or two troublemakers, you're pretty set. If you're attacked by the classic "marauding horde of zombie bikers", or any sizeable group of people, even an FN belt-fed .30cal machinegun isn't going to be enough, so no point in sweating the details.

    Get a .22LR, shoot the heck out of it, and then apply your "lessons learned" from the .22 to your future firearms purchase. If disaster strikes, you're still far better armed than the folks who don't have a .22 rifle.

    -MV
     
  24. colt.45

    colt.45 Member

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    a mini-30 is a good bet. it is accurate enough for hunting and home protection. the performance of 7.62x39 is almost identical to 30-30, and it is probably the most used and avalable round in the world.

    a good accurate bolt action is the perferred hunting rifle, and in a fight it is a sure demoraliser.
     
  25. MechAg94

    MechAg94 Member

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    I like the idea of a lever gun myself. If money is really an issue, an SKS or Mosin-Nagant rifle would be good choices. If you can spend a little more, a lever gun would good. Beyond that, a Garand might be a good choice. CMP has cheap ammo and the Korean corrosive surplus is still out there. I guess 'cheap' is a relative term for different people.

    As far as SHTF, I think that one poster is right about game being scarce. City people may stay near the city, but there are a LOT of people who live outside the city in and near small towns. Pretty much anywhere within 300 miles of Houston is dotted with small towns and plots of land. The population density is high enough that if people had to depend on hunting, there wouldn't be a lot of game around. That being said, there is a lot of farming in this area and a lot of land that could be turned back to farming if the equipment was available. It would all depend on how stable things were.
     
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