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gangs serving in the military, using tactics after service

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by brighamr, Mar 7, 2008.

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  1. brighamr

    brighamr Member

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    i watched a show last night regarding gang members who served in the military. Apparently in Iraq, there is Norteno and SU13 grafiti. The show said that the military allowed gang members as long as they were "passive" members of the gang.

    The thing that really got me thinking was that one of the gang members served in the marines. After he got out, he supposedly used marine tactics to murder a couple guys. (The show said he used suppressive fire while actively engaging and closing in on his target - something you could only learn by being in the armed forces :scrutiny: ). this example isn't exactly something you would only know by serving in the armed forces, but it got me to thinking:
    1) why are gang members allowed in the military at all?
    2) would the penalties be stricter for a post service member who commits murder?
    3) I always thought the military firearms training (basic) taught using full auto MGs, suppressive fire, and accuracy. Obviously the gangs in US can't own Full Auto, so what else could they learn in the military that would serve them on the streets?

    honest questions. I've never served and am interested why gangs would send there members to Iraq.
     
  2. SsevenN

    SsevenN Member

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    The tactics they will benifit from the most would be the ones utilizing teamwork. I don't think the firearms training is specifically the greatest advantage they walk away with, Its knowing how to lead under a combat situation and keep an organized, effective fighting force.

    7
     
  3. Eric F

    Eric F Member

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    good post and questions let me answer them for you.

    1.because they need everyone they can get right now.

    2.no

    3.you can supress with semi-auto,
    why not murder is also illegal but they do it. Full auto weapons can be found on the streets from time to time. ambush explosives tactics ect ect survival there is alot they can learn an organized squad is far better than a crowd of untrained angry folks
     
  4. BattleChimp Potemkin

    BattleChimp Potemkin Member

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    I saw the same show.
    1.)Dwindling recruitment numbers make for interesting methods to get people in (lessening the entrace requirements). Heck, a friend of mine was allowed into our logistics unit even though he had diabetes (a usual no-no before). Recuiter told him to just not tell anyone, until he needed insulin one day. Not fun :(.
    2. No, in fact, Ive heard (not seen however, someone quote one or shut me up ;)) that military service is brought up as a reason to lessen service ("He was a good person, but circumstances went out of control" type of thing).
    3. There are ways to convert things to full auto and a blackmarket industry built around this same desire (remember the two jerks at North Hollywood?). They can learn small unit tactics, physical fitness and leadership tactics. Maybe would not make improved gang lethality, however better personal lethality (as in the Morales? case mentioned above).

    I dont think its a matter of gangs sending someone there, they just go of thier own accord to learn the tactics and maybe teach others? Not entirely sure. Its a little disconcerting about how individuals are made to be better criminals and enter wholesome service, lying through thier teeth the entire way about service and honor, then jumping police at a convienience mart. Pretty sickening. The guy was a bloody Marine, for goodness sake! Every Marine Ive met or worked with (except drunk ones ;)) were good, upstanding men who would do anything you needed and then some just to help you out.
     
  5. brighamr

    brighamr Member

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    I should have mentioned the statement regarding "obvioulsy they can't own full auto" was sarcasm

    the leadership and how to work in a team comment gives me some insight. It just really makes me think, our government is paying to teach gang members how to harrass the people of our nation. That's a little saddening.
     
  6. WinchesterAA

    WinchesterAA Member

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    not to detract from the scope of the subject, but suppressive fire isn't exactly a hard concept to understand without the military...
     
  7. siglite

    siglite Member

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    This strikes me as fear mongering. How many times has this happened? How many former military are being arrested in gang violence? Out of the millions of vets running around, how many are actually teaching fire/maneuver/MOUT to gangs?

    My suspicion is that the number is negligible. But it sure makes for a scary, sensationalist story that might just tug at racist fears a bit.
     
  8. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    If they don't have a criminal record, no way to really filter them out. Those that do have minor records are still accepted. Felonies were a disqualifier when I joined, but folks who are active duty on this board might be able to fill us in with more info.

    Nope, pretty much the same.

    Aggressive CQB tactics. The IAD(Immediate Action Drill) for a near ambush is a universally taught tactic. If you're ambushed from within 50 meters or so, turn and assault into the ambushers. By "assault" I mean running full tilt, firing, carrying through the target and running over the top of 'em and stomping them if they're still in your way.

    So they can get high quality FOF training, experience under fire, and come back and teach the other gang members. I have personal experience as ex-military in FOF against other non-military law enforcement officers. They are universally shocked (the first time) when they get their butts kicked by guys who are prior service. They learn, but it's something they don't know until they experience what it's like to fight military trained folks. You don't realize until you're in that stress training environment how those old military drills stick with you. No hesitation, just instinct. It catches many of my LEO colleagues by surprise.
     
  9. CountGlockula

    CountGlockula Member

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    Solution, get trained yourself.
     
  10. J Lambs

    J Lambs Member

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    At the end of the show they stated that in Dec 2007 Bush signed legislation that does not allow active gang members to serve in the military.
     
  11. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    While I doubt that the military is the only place to "learn" military tactics, like suppressive fire," it may be the best place to learn and practice them.
    There are books available on these subjects anyone can buy.
    The average gangbanger of course isn't going to buy them and doesn't even likely know of them.
    Certainly a militarily experienced gangbanger would have a big advantage over others.
    And it is rather scary that some of the "passive" ones are in the military.
    They might NOT be passive when they're discharged . . . . . . . . .
     
  12. BattleChimp Potemkin

    BattleChimp Potemkin Member

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    Fear mongering? Yes. The percentages given of gang membership in the service are extremely low. Only one case was cited in the show regarding military service and gangs casuing an issue with police. However, with the increasingly weapons prolific and tactics practiced by criminals today, training is required to stay ahead.
     
  13. J Lambs

    J Lambs Member

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    The number of gang members in the military was less than 1%. But in perspective, that is over 10,000 troops. Which would equate to a very large military base. So if you think of it as an entire base of gang members, it is scary. Also, the marine that attacked the police was using armor piercing rounds. The cops were outgunned and not trained for that type of combat.
     
  14. rocinante

    rocinante Member

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    how are they going to keep gang members out? As long as the recruit fits the requirements it is not like there is a gang banger membership database that says someone is guilty by association. The military does screen for felons I assume.
     
  15. NG VI

    NG VI Member

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    I had one in another platoon in my Basic company, a judge sentenced him to either jail (I think it was about 5 or 8 years) or serving in the Army. I have no idea if he will change his lifestyle over the course of his time in, or if he's even still in, but he definitely didn't seem too remorseful or like he wanted to stay out of that life.

    Also at one point in reception he had to be disarmed of a fork he had taken from the chow hall, "just in case". Idiot.
     
  16. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I recruited in SoCal ... I know I brought some guys into the service who'd probably been responsible for, or involved in, gang-related killings and a lot of gang crime. I always asked about gang affiliation, most times I got honest answers. But if they qualified, I brought 'em in -- but not before trying my hardest to DQ them -- goal be damned (fortunately, in my district, we usually always hit goal fairly painlessly).

    Most gang members I recruited needed to get away from something (someone was after them, things were heating up) or -- and this was most of the time -- they honestly wanted to get away from the gang life, do something different, and for them, enlisting was more honorable in their culture than simply running away ...

    Nowadays, the rules on tattoos screen a lot of gang members who are prospective recruits out. Only thing, if someone's never been convicted of a felony, the background checks aren't too deep unless the individual is been screened for a special program/school (e.g., advanced electronics, an intel rating/MOS, nuclear power program, etc.) with special requirements (i.e., limited prior drug use, higher ASVAB score requirements, a higher security clearance) right off the bat.

    Prospective enlistees don't get polygraphed. Shorter period of time they're in DEP, less becomes known about 'em, less info comes out.
     
  17. BattleChimp Potemkin

    BattleChimp Potemkin Member

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    The show claimed armor piercing rounds. Wasnt certain manufacturers (Norinco, etc..) banned from importation under those same premises. The show was good, but still fell fault to the same problems sensationalism causes in today's media.
     
  18. siglite

    siglite Member

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    You used "less than 1%." That leaves room for it to be .9% all the way down to .0000000000001%. This indicates to me that the volume is completely negligible. It could be one person. That's less than one percent. But using your numbers, which is the absolute worst case, we get somewhere around 10,000, right?

    10,000/350,000,000 = .00285% chance any given american is teaching gang members "military tactics."

    This reeks of baseless fear mongering.
     
  19. BattleChimp Potemkin

    BattleChimp Potemkin Member

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    NG VI,
    Was that during Vietnam? I heard that was very common during the drafts.
     
  20. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    At least a few states do keep a gang membership list. I suspect it is not something that is real up to date or accurate.
     
  21. brighamr

    brighamr Member

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    wow, definitely a lot of info here. I have zero insight into the recruitment process, pretty interesting. It's off topic, but I assume all recruits are screened for drugs?

    As for the gang members who would join to get out of the gang life, that's pretty noble. I just couldn't imagine going through basic, shipping over to Iraq and seeing your gang sign tagged on US army equipment.
     
  22. ArmedBear

    ArmedBear Member

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    There's nothing stopping someone with a clean record, who then serves in the military, from becoming a criminal after getting out.

    The military used to be considered a good way to get wayward young men to "shape up" and learn discipline -- those old stories about the judge offering a first-time young defendant "jail or the Army" are true.

    The way I figure it, military service in Iraq would not be something that most gangbangers would choose to do, just to learn some tactics. You can learn a lot by playing Paintball, with the right coach. The military is hard work; are gangbangers really attracted to hard work?
     
  23. pdowg881

    pdowg881 Member

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    you can learn supressive fire from xbox.
     
  24. siglite

    siglite Member

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    Please don't interpret my position that this is fear-mongering hogwash, with a touch of exploitation of race-based fear, as an advocacy of failing to train as much as you can. I find no fault at all with your statement above. Training = good.
     
  25. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I think ArmedBear has nailed it
    In my experience, those who tried to maintain gang affiliation post-basic/individual training were usually weeded out within months; some may have lasted longer, but the bottom line, and the reality, is that active duty is hard work and deployments these days can suck ...
     
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