Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Germany again tightens rules governing (American's) privately-owned firearms

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Drizzt, Jan 3, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Drizzt

    Drizzt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,648
    Location:
    Moscow on the Colorado, TX
    Germany again tightens rules governing privately-owned firearms


    By Jon R. Anderson, Stars and Stripes
    European edition, Thursday, January 2, 2003



    HEIDELBERG, Germany — Officials are again tightening the rules governing privately owned firearms among U.S. military and civilian employees within Germany.

    Now, even personally owned weapons that are stored unused in unit arms rooms and military rod and gun clubs must be registered with the German government.

    Gunowners have until Dec. 1 to comply or guns will be confiscated and disposed of, according to a recent Army announcement. Those in violation of the new rules could also face disciplinary action.

    The new rule is the latest evolution in gun regulation changes that began in 1999, designed to put U.S. servicemembers and military civilians under the same gun laws followed by German civilians.

    Until then, U.S. personnel enjoyed a relatively simply registration process similar to privately owned car registration.

    Under the new rules, however, U.S. personnel who want to keep and use their own weapons for hunting and sport shooting must obtain a special permit, called a Waffenbesitzkart. To do that, German law requires completion of an in-depth hunting course, which usually takes about three months, or active participation in a sport shooting club, which usually takes about six months to join.

    U.S. personnel who didn’t want — or have time — to deal with the hassle had the option of storing their weapons in their unit arms room or at the local military-run rod and gun club until they transferred out of Germany. But not any more, under the latest rule change.

    Firearms “that are not registered with German authorities by Dec. 1, 2003, or otherwise legally disposed of in time — i.e., shipped out of Germany, turned in for destruction or sold to authorized persons — will be considered contraband and disposed of in coordination with host nation authorities,†according to the Army announcement.

    The procedures for complying with German registration law as well as existing Army regulations can be found on U.S. Army Europe’s Web site at www.per.hqusareur.army.mil/services/mwrd/index.htm.

    http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=12356
     
  2. 2dogs

    2dogs Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,865
    Location:
    the city
    Maybe I'm wrong- didn't these guys at one time do this funny little "goosestep' thing, and weird salutes and stuff?:neener:
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2003
  3. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    3,297
    Location:
    Looking for a cow that Queen Meadhbh stole
    How can they be disposed of if they are not registered? Does the Army require soldiers so register their private weapons if on base housing?

    How common is off base housing in Germany?
     
  4. Blackcloud6

    Blackcloud6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    601
    All privatly owned weapons of service members in USAREUR have to be registered with the provost marshal whether you live on or off base.

    I wonder how this new German requirment is affected by the Status of Forces agreement, or di d we just roll over and allow the the Garmans to negotiate this into the SOFA.

    When I was over the in the 80's I got my German hunting license through the Army and did not have to meet the same requirments as a German citizen. I wonder if the US service members will be able to get the required card by going through a similar procedure.

    One more reason why we should bring the boys back home. Germany (and now S. Korea) doesn't appreciate what we doine for them anymore.
     
  5. Redlg155

    Redlg155 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,724
    Location:
    NW Florida
    In the majority of places, Yes.

    When I was in Germany in the early 90s I lived off post. All was fine until a weapons incident involving a SSGT. Using the Army mentality the Brigade Commander ordered all weapons belonging to ranks SGT and below to be turned into the arms room to be checked out by submitting a request to your company commander.

    Didn't make a difference that a SSGT commited the offense.

    Oh well. As much as I enjoyed the Military I'm glad I'm free of the opression and assenine laws governing the military. You have just about zero rights and are subjected to idiotic decisions by commanders.

    The guys in Germany are stuck because the military does not care about private weapons. The U.S. Army barely trusts its soldiers with issue weapons. I've spent quite a few days guarding an Ammo Supply Point armed with a baton.

    Stupid...just plain stupid.

    Good SHooting
    Red
     
  6. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Their country, their laws, why are we wasting breath over it...
     
  7. Lochaber

    Lochaber Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    151
    Out of curiosity, why are we still there? Are we afraid that Poland is going to invade? If I am not mistaken Germany is now surounded by NATO countries. Hell, even Russia is almost NATO now, we have joint training with them. How about we pack up and leave?

    We can justify Korea but how do we justify Germany? Let them loose a bit more money, as if they werent already in the dog house with %11 unemployment. Maybe they will wake up. And if they dont, they might have to build up their own military and invade France. Wouldnt that be wet dream enducing?

    Loch
     
  8. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    I have a French military rifle..never shot and only dropped once...:rolleyes:
     
  9. dave

    dave Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    145
    "Their country, their laws, why are we wasting breath over it..." by wild alaska



    I agree with you on that, sir. But I do have one question. Aren't U.S. military bases considered to be U.S. property, just like the embassy grounds?
     
  10. Blackcloud6

    Blackcloud6 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    601
    >>Their country, their laws, why are we wasting breath over it...<<

    Yep and they can defend it themselves, too.
     
  11. M67

    M67 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    755
    Location:
    Norway
    Just curious. Are foreign military personnel in the US exempt from US firearms legislation?

    Unless I'm mistaken, 18 year olds can legally own handguns in Germany, so maybe some of those servicemen are better off there than at home? Unless of course the US Army has something to say about the lax German gun laws...
     
  12. Griff

    Griff Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    321
    Location:
    NC
    I work there, live nearby (just for two more years, just for two more years…). The politicos on both sides are dancing on a tightrope, rumors all over the place. Remember, there's 3 ways to do things: The Right way, The Wrong way, and The Army way. Sadly, we've gotten used to it, but still disagree most heartily and vocally whenever possible. Working on a letter to the 26th ASG Commander, but his hands are probably tied, too. We’ll see him next weekend at an upcoming community event and ask, may get some info.
    We knew something was coming when the Rod & Gun Club started handing out "schießende Bücher", or shooting (log-) books, to keep track of our attendance and activities. Felt a bit Californicated, you know? Good ‘ol guy that worked there named Buck quit shortly after, but stayed tight-lipped, left a lot of room for speculation, its a fairly tight community.
    About the same time the Sunday breakfasts were shut down because the local officials (a percentage of "Host Nation Local Nationals" are required by SOFA agreement to be employed wherever possible at U.S. facilities, as I understand it) were whining about tax regulations and working on Sunday. Our big guys rolled over on us, and shut it down several months ago. I’ve shot with Polizei many times there, too, guess they were training tax-free as well (the local German Schutzenhaus is down the road a klick or two)
    Haven't been back for a while, just go to use the range facilities (when local regulations, mostly religion-related, allow) but nobody's happy and attendance is dropping off.
    On the Up side, the Germans aren't happy (to say the least) with their current gov't, which has up to 40% income tax, 10% unemployment, and a bunch of socialist-leaning Greens in power. Maybe there's hope for them, yet. Still working on it for us.
     
  13. T.Stahl

    T.Stahl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    near Hamburg/Germany
    We are a souvereign nation, so where's the problem? Are American soldiers serving in Japan or GB allowed to own guns at all? Why should the gun laws be different for members of foreign military services? Should the technical regulations regarding privately owned vehicles (regular checks) be different, too?

    I wonder how many American soldiers enjoy their time in Germany and being allowed to drink beer before they are 21. ;)
     
  14. Wildalaska

    Wildalaska member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    5,296
    Location:
    Anchorage, Alaska
    No quarrle with that, pull all the troops out of Europe (except GB, they are our allies) and let em all fend for themselves...
     
  15. T.Stahl

    T.Stahl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    near Hamburg/Germany
    Right, no airlift hubs, no supply depots, no medical facilities close to the Middle East theatre. You really want that? Ok, close all your facilities and rise new ones in GB.

    In which case the question remains: Are US service members allowed to own private guns on or off base in Great Britain and what are the laws?
     
  16. Drizzt

    Drizzt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,648
    Location:
    Moscow on the Colorado, TX
    T.Stahl: I would rather we not pull everyone out. Do you know if there have been any issues with American servicemen and privately owned weapons? Or is this change more along the lines of trying to have the same restrictions on all present?
     
  17. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    6,385
    Location:
    Virden, IL
    Their land, their laws. I don't see the problem. If we don't want our soldiers living like their citizens, we should pull out. We won't do that, of course, because as Herr Stahl points out, those bases are not about us "defending the Germans from invasion" at all. Even when the Soviets were there, does anyone really believe we had bases in Germany because we wanted to be kind to the German people? That was certainly part of it, but can anyone deny that we didn't want the Soviets to own Europe?

    I don't apologize for that attitude, by the way. There's nothing wrong with American policy being based on American self-interest. But let's not get so arrogant that we think our soldiers shouldn't be subject to German laws in Germany!
     
  18. Odessa

    Odessa Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    eastern NC
    The current German government is just one generation away from being Nazis; they did it once - starting with gun control, maybe they are starting on it again. We don't NEED the bases there anymore, I say lets get the hell out.
     
  19. sixgun_symphony

    sixgun_symphony member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Seattle
    Don Gwinn,


    You forgot who won the war. It's an American army that occupies Germany and not a German army that occupies America.

    Our brass is too diplomatic. They need to stand up for the GI's and tell the America hating greenie-socialist government there to bugger off.
     
  20. T.Stahl

    T.Stahl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    near Hamburg/Germany
    I am not aware of any problems with American soldiers or family members privatelyowning firearms (felonies or such). They seem to be just as peaceful as German legal gun owners.
    I think the new legislation has to do with becoming a fully souvereign state when we reunited with the Eastern part of Germany and "the same law for all".
    Thank you for reminding me of our past. I wonder how far American politicians are from being Nazis themselves, HighCap-ban, Assault-Weapons-ban, et al. :confused:

    BTW, it's the American strategy to defend the CONUS on the opposite coast. You're protecting your Atlantic coast with troops in Europe and your Pacific coast with troops in East Asia. Pulling your troops out of Europe (or Korea) would be fundamental change in US strategies.
     
  21. T.Stahl

    T.Stahl Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    739
    Location:
    near Hamburg/Germany
    That's the point.
    You are no longer occupying Germany, we are fully souvereign now.
     
  22. another okie

    another okie Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,850
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    T. Stahl is right. The U.S. forces in Germany are no longer legally an occupying force, nor have they been for some time. The last place U.S. and British forces had such rights was Berlin, because of the special treaties governing it. Germany is our ally, not our subject.
     
  23. benewton

    benewton Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    603
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Spent '72-74 playing Army in Germany, and learned a great deal while there.

    NYC should be used as a tactical nuclear weapons test site.

    Germany should be used as a strategic nuclear weapons test site.
     
  24. Don Gwinn

    Don Gwinn Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Messages:
    6,385
    Location:
    Virden, IL
    :scrutiny:

    Sixgun, I was not aware that our presence in Germany was a military occupation. I bet the Germans would be surprised to learn it, too. Didn't know the political and military situation hasn't changed in Europe in the last 57 years. My bad.

    Again, "The war" you reference was 57 years ago. In the next war after that one, commonly referred to as either "The Cold War" or "World War III," the West Germans were on our side. When it ended, they remained our allies and remain so to this day.

    But by all means, let's start pushing Europe around while we're scrambling to figure out whether we can handle Iraq and North Korea at the same time. That sounds like a good idea!
     
  25. Odessa

    Odessa Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    46
    Location:
    eastern NC
    The US stayed in Germany (and other European countries) post-WW2 for several good reasons; first as an Army of Occupation, primarily dealing with de-nazification and vitally needed human aid (refugees, basic food/shelter issues etc). The US assisted in the re-establishment of democracy and government, and human/economic assistance (the Marshall Plan). We were also there to keep the Soviet Union from moving any further west - the overarching US strategy from September 1950 until the early/mid-1990's was entitled a "Strategy of Containment"; i.e., not allowing communism to spread any further (that is why we fought the Korean and Vietnam wars and spent billions on foriegn assistance). Beginning with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the eventual fall of communism the US evolved it overarching strategy to one of "engagement and enlargement"; i.e., engage the world in various places as needed (the former Yugoslavia) and in doing so enlarge the number of countries operating democractically (that would be in our best interest in keeping peace as democratic governments are less likely to start wars for territorial or politcial reasons). Brings me to my point, we do not NEED to be in the western countries of Europe anymore, if we need to be there at all in would be in places like Poland, Hungary, etc, in which our mutual strategies would complement each other for the gain of all. We should remove our forces from Germany and locate further east for the good of both (forward deployment bases we could use for SWA and other hotspots in the region and the economic and stability that having our divisions/corps on the ground brings to the host nation). The less a country needs us the more restrictive the SOFA's will become (i.e., present day Germany). Odessa
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page