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Getting the most out of Appleseed

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by kayak-man, Mar 9, 2011.

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  1. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    I've heard a lot of good things about the Appleseed Project Marksmanship Clinics, and I would really like to attend one. I would like to qualify if I can, but my priority is the skill, not so much the badge that says I can shoot well.

    My understanding is that its a 2 day course, and people usually shoot thier .22 the first day, and then a centerfire the second, so first, if thats not right, please correct me.

    Right now I have 3 rifles: A savage 111 30-06, a Saiga AK in 7.62x39, and an old Remington SportKing .22. The Remington has a sling, but its old and I don't know if its long enough (I've never utilized a sling to increase acuracy). Also, it doesn't really have sights. It has a scope on a side mounted bracket so I can still use the non-existant iron sights, which are two screws in the barrel, about an inch apart, at the end. The rifle has had some reliability issues, but I think those were due to it not being cleaned and lubed often enough.

    My question is, how much of a benefit would I get out of the AK and old .22? Would I really be getting the most out of the course? Or should I wait until I can afford a better .22 and my shoulder has healed enough that I can shoot the Savage?

    Thanks,

    Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
     
  2. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    Your best bet is to "snap-in" at home and get limbered up and your body used to the positions. You can practice aiming and dry firing (centerfire NOT the .22) at a small dot placed on the wall.

    You can download the position info as it's widely available online and free. Once you get the positions mastered then start worrying about rounds on paper and adjusting/tinkering with the rifle.

    I don't have the need to go to an appleseed and if you can't all the info they provide is basic NRA marksmanship info.
     
  3. montveil

    montveil Member

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    check the Appleseed site
    http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

    A repeating 22 such as a 10-22 would be perfect. You should get a military sling and have 1 1/4 inch sling swivels for your rifle

    The sight will have all the info you need. I will attend my first next month
     
  4. Smokey Joe

    Smokey Joe Member

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    Jeremy is correct, but...

    Kayak-Man--IMNSHO, there is NOTHNG like getting on-range, live-firing instruction. You can download all the info in the world, practice positions in yr living room all you want, dry-fire until the cows come home--All of which, BTW, will help your marksmanship, no question there--but actual shooting, and instruction and critiquing by real-live persons, will do yr marksmanship a great deal more.

    If Jeremy 2171 is already better than just "a good shot with a rifle" then, yes, he doesn't have the need to go to an Appleseed event. (It might surprise him and make him even better yet, but he's right in that case, he doesn't have the need to.) And the same is true for you, too.

    OTOH, an Appleseed is XLNT marksmanship practice, not to mention a great way to spend a weekend in the company of a bunch of other shooters, and actually shooting A LOT (as opposed to going to a craft show with your wife or some such--gack!)

    As to the eternal "what rifle" question, the Appleseed attitude is, "Bring what you got, shoot what you brung." Yr .22 of course will cost a LOT less to feed for the event than will yr centerfires, but the way you describe it, it wants a set of decent sights. (That's beyond the "quickie" kind of repairs--I'd say see a gunsmith about that.) If it has sling swivels, you can probably buy or borrow a proper sling at the Appleseed, or order one beforehand from their website. Either of yr 2 centerfires would work for the event if they have sling swivels. Lacking the sling swivels (which of course you could install yrself if need be) you lose a lot of the benefit from the Appleseed instruction.

    For my own first Appleseed, I shot my target .243 with handloads, and aside from burning up a whole lot of powder and target bullets, it worked great. It did raise some eyebrows, but no one, NO ONE, said anything about its being the wrong gun or anything of the sort. That just isn't The Appleseed Way.

    The best rifle for an Appleseed would have: Autoloading, several removable box magazines of at least 10 rounds each, sling swivels and a military-style sling, adjustable sights ('scope or iron), and fit you well. It also wants to be a rifle which you know how to handle--this is NOT the time nor place to break in a new rifle! Alternatives would include loading from stripper clips, and any other style of action that you can work quickly and reliably. Single-shot rifles are at a great disadvantage, as are internal box magazines, unless usable with the stripper clips, and tubular magazines are awkward to work with on the firing line. Notice that I said nothing about caliber--ANY cartridge up to & including 8mm or .303 British will do fine.

    Some Appleseed events do all the shooting @ 25 yd, both days. Some go to a longer distance the second day--It depends on what the host facility has available.

    The Appleseed website is a gold mine of info, including they have a list of what to bring--It is a well-thought-out list. You can probably contact somebody involved with the event you intend to go to, as to whether there will be distance shooting or all at 25 yd, at that particular event. Who to contact will be listed on the A's website also. BTW, an Appleseed goes, come rain or shine or snow or anything short of a hurricane I guess, so be prepared for the weather.

    Hope you get to one, hope you have a great time, hope you give us a report on your experience.
     
  5. benzy2

    benzy2 Member

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    I would do it a little different. They want you to take 1500 rounds of ammo. By taking the AK you are looking at $100 on 7.62x39, if not more. I would take that $100, save a little more and buy a 10-22 (used can be found cheaper yet as well), and then only take the rimfire. If you can buy a set of tech sights first as well it would be a good start. A web sling can be found for around $10 and is a great first shooting sling. Most carry slings won't work in the way a proper shooting sling works.

    Or, go with what you have and enjoy it. Appleseed isn't a one and done type of event. You are encouraged to shoot it multiple times. If all you have now is a scoped .22 and an AK, enjoy those. The position work will be the same no matter what rifle you use.
     
  6. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    Especially for your first event, I would highly recommend leaving the centerfires at home. Get the Remington cleaned and shooting well and plan on using it if it is reliable. Put a proper sling on it. I like a leather 1907 but most use a GI web sling. IMHO, you get the most out of the course with a proper rifle but you are guaranteed to learn something no matter what you bring. If after your event you feel strongly enough to pursue it further and earn your patch, I would strongly suggest a 10/22 with Tech Sights and a proper sling.

    The patch is not about bragging rights, it's about what you have to do to earn it. You're only shooting against yourself. If you do get your patch, you will surely have earned it.
     
  7. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Thanks for the input!

    I really like that Remington .22, and will probably use it for the rest of my life... but it seems like the smart money is on picking up a 10/22. Maybe I'll get lucky and find someone who is interested in trading one for a single shot 12 guage or a Hi-point.

    So on a slightly different note, does anybody have any advice on where i could find a sub $100 10/22? Or similar?

    Craig, I looked up those 1907 slings. They look familar. I took out the .22 and looked at the sling setup that it has. Guess what kind of sling is on it...
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2011
  8. henschman

    henschman Member

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    Hey, I'm an Appleseed shoot boss and state coordinator, so I thought I might give you some advice.

    Since the old .22 already has a suitable sling for use as a marksmanship aid, I would use it for most of the event. If it is a tube feed, the shoot boss will give you a special procedure for simulating a reload, so you can still shoot the stages on the Army Qual. Test that involve forced reloads under time pressure. If it has mags, try to bring at least 2 of them.

    If the event has a full distance range available for Sunday afternoon, you can use your center-fires on it (they would both be fine). Even if there is no full distance component, you can still get a good battle sight zero on them at 25m. If you don't have a sling for the AK, you can buy a surplus one for really cheap off e-bay or at a surplus store or something. The standard issue AK sling is adjustable enough so that you can use it as a hasty sling.

    I say you have everything you need for an Appleseed. Get signed up! And bring a friend!



    And for those who say they don't need an Appleseed, I do a little something here in Oklahoma called the "Rifleman's Challenge." Before the event starts, we will set up a 25m Army Qualification Test and let you shoot it. We'll even be nice and give you 5 sighter rounds (which is more than what those Militiamen had on the morning of April 19, 1775). If you don't score expert, you have to pay the $70 registraton fee and stay for the course. If you do score expert, I will pay you the $70 out of my own pocket (which you can pocket and walk away if you want), and you will gain untold glory and admiration. The point being, it is not incredibly easy to shoot Expert on the AQT, which is why that Rifleman's patch of ours actually means something.

    Even if you can clean the AQT and can hit a man-sized target from 500 yards every time blindfolded in the offhand position with one hand tied behind your back, I would ask you this: What are you doing to pass on your skills to your fellow Americans, so that our country's heritage of marksmanship doesn't die with the current generation?

    If you are already a skilled marksman, and "don't need" Appleseed's marksmanship training, then you DO NEED to join us as an Instructor to help pass those skills on to others, so we can save our heritage. BTW, Appleseed is a lot more than just marksmanship. It is worth paying the registration fee and coming just to hear the history that is told at these events, and to be in the company of the finest group of Americans you could find (I have never been to an Appleseed that doesn't match that description). The shooting in combination with the history really is an experience that can't be done justice with words. You have to come to see what I'm talking about.

    But I will say that expert shooters are frequently surprised at how much they end up learning at an Appleseed. Being coached by other experienced marksmen really helps to solidify those fundamentals, and it isn't something you can get practicing by yourself. If you are a good shot but always shoot from the bench or bipod, you will also benefit a lot by learning proper unsupported field positions and what an amazing marksmanship aid the sling is.
     
  9. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Henchman, thank you for your input!

    Between now and my last post, I realised that I qualify for the reduced $5 youth fee (Don't turn 21 until may) so even if my rifle isn't the most tacticool .22 on the planet, and even if things like adjusting the sights and magazine changes don't aply to my rifle, I'm sure I'll be able to get my $5 worth. I'm planning on attending the next one.
     
  10. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    Where do I collect my $70?? :)

    No, seriously I was a Rifleman long before Appleseed ever started...even beat old Fred a time or three...

    I think I've passed my skills on rather well....I just retired so I'm taking a small break getting the new home setup and spending time with my family that I've missed on those long deployments. I'm also training the kids how to shoot...so I am passing it along.

    I have no desire to be an instructor at Appleseed but thanks for the offer. Good program but too many issues with old Fred.....and his lack of support for the full 2A.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  11. BigDaddyNEB

    BigDaddyNEB Member

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    Are you anywhere near a Cabelas? Right now they have a Marlin 795 with a 10 shot magazine for $ 99 until March 13.
     
  12. snake284

    snake284 Member

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    Get a snap cap for a 22 and dry fire til your heart's content.

    You may or may not be correct about the appleseed shooting 22s on Saturday and Centerfires on Sunday, but I think it depends on which event you attend. I think the instructors may do things differently. The one time I participated we shot 22s both days at I think it was either 25 yards or 50 feet, I can't remember which. But we were shooting centerfires at that range too. We actually were shooting both rim fire and centerfire at the same time. My suggestion to you would be to save up and buy a 10/22 and change the hammer out to a target hammer, which will cost you about $30.00 and an aftermarket bolt release which costs about $13.00. I also replaced the bolt stop pin in the rear of the action with a buffer pin which is suppose to dampen action noise when the bolt hits the stop. I don't know how well that worked because I installed it before I ever shot it.

    I paid $180 for my 10/22 carbine at Academy and then spent about $80 more on aftermarket parts, the target hammer, the bolt release, an extended magazine release, the buffer pin, and an extra magazine or two.

    The target hammer lowered the trigger pull weight from about 7 pounds to about 2-2.5 pounds. It's really smooth now. Actually I also polished the sear and trigger mating surfaces with my Dremmel tool and a polishing wheel with jewler's rouge to a mirror finish which I think helped lower the pull weight further.

    As for the bolt release, the factory one sucked bad. You had to push up on the little lever just so and pull back on the bolt at the same time. It was a real pain. The new one I installed is an auto release and all you have to do to release the bolt is pull the bolt back and let it go. It works very smooth.

    The extended mag release I installed I found I really didn't need. People told me to change it out and I did, only to find out the newer models come from the factory with a revised extended release. In fact I'm considering putting the factory one back in because I think it's actually longer than the aftermarket one.

    Anyway, that's what I did and what would help you a lot in an appleseed shoot, because the hard trigger that comes on them new is not conducive to accuracy, and that bolt release gets to be a real hazard when you're trying to work it and you have to go through all those physical contortions to get it to release.

    The 10/22s are the way to go, and even with the extra money you'll spend on aftermarket parts to make these revisions, you still wouldn't be able to buy a rifle that good for what you'll you'll spend. The key to the savings is you do the extra work.

    I know several people that have made rifleman in Appleseed with a 22. The 10/22 is by far the most popular with the Marlin model 60 not too far behind. But the Marlin is a tubular Magazine gun and it isn't as easy to do magazine changes required in some of the shooting relays. And it's not as easy to tune the trigger. Also, if you get a 10/22, you should probably get at least two extra magazines if for that reason only.

    I also took my Garand to the event. I shot it some but I found a heavy rifle that's loud and has substantial recoil will wear you out over a days shooting. The 10/22s are much sweeter to use and a lot less tiring.

    I even took one of my Yugo Mausers but after I shot a couple of revolutions I saw the vanity in anything but a Semi Auto. Things just happen too fast for that and all that bolt cranking will wear you out even more.

    The best thing about Appleseed IMHO is that they teach the history of the American Revolution in between shooting relays. When you get there in the morning you register and pay your money. Then they have a safety meeting and the instructors and the range officer will check your firearm over.

    Then you have your first history lesson which begins with the events of April 18-19, 1775 at Lexington-Concord, the shots heard round the world to include Paul Revere and his accomplices ride to warn the colonist at Lexington that the British were coming from Boston to disarm them and confiscate their supplies and munitions. If you have kids, this will probably be their first exposure to the true history of this unless you have taught them at home, as in school now they get a revised version as we all know. It seems that the truth interferes with the liberal agenda.

    One of my favorite parts of the history leading up to the Revolution was Patrick Henry's speech at St.Johns church in Richmond Va. It must have been really inspiring to the colonist.

    Anyway, that's my take on Appleseed and I can't wait for the next even.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2011
  13. Usagi

    Usagi Member

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    Food for thought-

    Ammo for the AK in these parts is about $6 per box of 20. Appleseed needs at least 500 rounds. That's no less than $150.

    A Marlin 795 + tech sights (or a scope) + sling + extra mag + sling swivels + ammo = ~$200.
    At the end of the day, you'd have a darn good trainer rifle to boot.
     
  14. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    I can't imagine burning up $200 to shoot a rifle that is not very well suited to the purpose when you can procure a perfectly serviceable .22 for as much.
     
  15. snake284

    snake284 Member

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    I disagree that Jeremy or whoever, if they are already proficient with a rifle doesn't need to go to an Appleseed event. Appleseed is more than just about the shooting. It's a state of mind. And also, anyone that can shoot and make Rifleman there, Appleseed needs there help to instruct others. They need participation. I'm a good one to talk but I'm preparing to get with the program. I'm merely pointing this out here.
     
  16. snake284

    snake284 Member

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    Oh ok Jeremy, I just read your post there. Sorry. You sound like you've already contributed above and beyond and congrats on beating Fred, LOL!!!
    I have never met the infamous Fred but feel I know him from all I've heard about him. He's a great man for getting this stuff together like he has.
     
  17. snake284

    snake284 Member

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    Also, Jeremy, I do agree about not supporting the 2A. That is one thing I had noticed about some Appleseeders is there obstinance about the part the NRA plays. I believe we need both groups. Both go about things a little different, but if Fred feels that his program can do it all, he's sadly mistaken. There's no way Appleseed will ever reach as many people or do as much as NRA does. They should go hand and hand and work together. They have two completely different missions that can save this country, but remember, divided we fall.

    I still will say though, go for Appleseed, take what you can from it, contribute what you can, but stand by the NRA also and the 2A. Without that, none of the rest means anything.
     
  18. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    Snake, thanks for taking the time to explain why all the aftermarket stuff is a good thing. Last week I was able to start going back to work, so I'm getting a little bit of money, and I'd prefer to not buy another rifle (I've been putting off things like a holster, Garand, and reloading gear for a while) so I will probably go to one of the Appleseed shoots with the .22 I have now, and after I've been back at work for a while I'll pick up a 10/22.

    Thanks for all the input.

    Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
     
  19. Jeremy2171

    Jeremy2171 Member

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    My biggest issue was when old Fred kicked the MG'ers and 50cal shooters off the range. Fred was then voted off the board for the Gun Club but he and his cronies were still on the board of the "landowners". SO he had a secret meeting and raised the rent on the club a bunch and attempted to forced the club of the land. He then called another "secret" meeting and voted himself back in as President of the gun club. The legit Board threw him out so he evicted the club and started up RWVA. Of course he kept the club property...ammo...guns pop up target machines that everyone has been using for the past 7 years etc....

    There is still a lawsuit going on over the whole issue last I heard....
     
  20. axeman_g

    axeman_g Member

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    do the appleseed with your .22, do you second one with the AK. I am going to my second in april, I did not qualify last time and i want to this time. Secret weapon, Techsites replacing the ineffective standard rem 597 sights.

    have a good time. The april shoots are the anniversary shoots and the ones to attend.
     
  21. asahrts

    asahrts Member

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    I just registered for my first appleseed & am so excited. hopefully i'll get a few in this year if all of my buddies stop having kids, thus requiring them to be chained down at home. thank you all for your recommendations & advice!
     
  22. mac66

    mac66 Member

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    While I have several 10/22s, the Marlin 795 currently on sale with a rebate for around $100 is a hard to beat value. Add a sling with 1.25 swivels, and extra mag and a $40 scope from Wal Mart and you are well under $200.
     
  23. henschman

    henschman Member

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    Even if Fred is a complete A-hole, what he created has become much larger than himself. To me Appleseed isn't Fred... he's just the guy who started it all. I was in the program for 2 1/2 years before I ever met him, and never really knew too much about him. Still don't, in fact. I do know that he is wise enough to be very hands-off in the way the program is run... it is a very de-centralized organization. The shoots are completely run by the local shoot bosses. Pretty much the only thing the national organization is there for is to provide insurance, print targets, and standardize the very most basic parts of the curriculum so there will be some measure of uniform quality of instruction at every shoot.

    We also don't get into modern political issues, so whether or not somebody in the program has the exact same view as you on the 2nd Amendment or any other issue doesn't really matter... we are all helping out the program because we believe that turning this country back into a nation of Riflemen is something that we personally value. I value that goal for very different reasons than some other instructors, but it doesn't bother me because for the time being, they are trying to push the wagon in the same direction I am.

    Whatever your thoughts about the founder, the program really is something that is worth being a part of. Appleseed isn't Fred... it's purely marksmanship, history, and heritage, and nothing more.

    And I still stand by the Rifleman's Challenge. If you really can shoot Expert cold on the first target of the day, you deserve that $70. You can collect your money at any shoot in Oklahoma, if you ever have the occasion to come out this way. I've actually always wanted somebody to take me up on that and see them do it. Nobody ever has, though. I imagine there are some old high power folks who could easily do it, but I've never had any of them actually come out and prove it.
     
  24. chrome_austex

    chrome_austex Member

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    I've done an appleseed with my go-to AR and also with a 22 semi-automatic, and won my patch et all.

    I would train with your go-to gun as a 1st priority, but if you can't shoulder that, then you could certainly benefit from using a 22, assuming it acutaly runs. Sounds like the more issues you can resolve with that 22, the better your Appleseed experience will be.

    Can you borrow a known-good 22 from a friend?
     
  25. kayak-man

    kayak-man Member

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    I took the .22 to the range, and it ran flawlessly. THe rifle fits me pretty well, and I think I'm going to use that. I don't expect it to give me any problems in terms of reliability as long as I keep it clean and run it a little wet. I'll probably bring the AK as a backup, just in case something does go wrong, but I doubt I'll need it.

    Thanks for all the input!

    Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson
     
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