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Getting used to safeties that swipe up or down

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Mike P Wagner, May 4, 2018.

  1. Mike P Wagner

    Mike P Wagner Member

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    I have an Armalite 24 (a CZ 75 clone) and that weapon has a safety that you swipe down with your thumb to disengage the safety and swipe up to engage the safety. I was looking at that Sarsmilaz Kilnic 2000, which is pretty much the same weapon that Armalite imorted, but the safety works the opposite way - up to disengage the safety, down to engage the safety.

    It looks like the the internal mechanism is likely the same - it looks like the Armalite safety’s pivot is to rear, and the Kilnic pivots at the front.

    Seeing that made me wonder if people who have both kinds of safety, is it confusing to remember which way to swipe to disengage the safety?

    I thing the 1911 safety is down to disengage the safety (I think it pivots at the rear) and that Beretta’s are the opposite.

    I would think that disengaging the safety would be muscle memory, and it would be confusing, but the Armalite is the one pistol I own.

    Is having different motions for different guns confusing?
     
  2. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    Could you post a picture of your Sarsmilaz Kilnic 2000 where you push the thumb safety up to disengage it.

    Every one I've handled had the thumb safety disengage by sweeping it downward....which makes sense as it is the same gun as the AR-24.

    Most, not all, thumb safeties which disengage when swept downward have those thumb safeties mounted on the slide
     
  3. Danoobie

    Danoobie Member

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    It doesn't bother me any, and I switch a lot from the up/ down type, like 1911s and 92s. I guess it's what you're used to.
    Some folk want it to always be similar. I'd figure out what you really like, and stick with it.
     
  4. Deus Machina

    Deus Machina Member

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    Yes, it can be confusing. No problem if it's a range toy; just don't rely on a safety to protect you. If it's a carry gun, it must be familiar.
    My preference by a vast margin is a frame-mounted safety that flips down to disengage. Learn to sweep the thumb down when drawing. A distant second is a slide-mounted safety that flips up--my first pistol was that way, and I learned to glide my thumb along the slide to flip it off, then down as I grip..
    I refuse to carry any manual safety that is different from those. I can't train myself to four different methods and expect muscle memory to pick the right one.
     
  5. C0untZer0

    C0untZer0 Member

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    I never could get used to safeties that flip up.

    I decided not to invest the time and effort to train with them.
     
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  6. Mike J

    Mike J Member

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    I have an old Ruger P-series that had a slide mounted safety that had to be pushed up to take off the safety. I found the motion counter intuitive. Since it is DA/SA my solution was to leave the safety off. Then one day I realized it was on when I thought it was off. I don't believe I've carried that pistol since. I honestly wish I had gotten the decock only version though I didn't know about such things when I bought it.
     
  7. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    http://www.sarsilmaz.com/en/catalog/product/KILINC-2000-MEGA/13/65

    Owners manual http://www.sarsilmaz.com/tr/CatalogueRepo/2/Attachments/pistols.pdf

    It is unclear to me looking at the pictures and reading through the manual, exactly how that safety works, though my bet is it works just like the Armalite/CZ/etc. safety, as in down is off and up is on.

    The manual even has illustrations of both frame and slide mounted safeties, in the same context, making it even more confusing.
     
  8. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    That doesn't appear to be the case in the pictures in the above link.
     
  9. Mike P Wagner

    Mike P Wagner Member

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    If you look at hate picture in the “Photo Gallery” in your fist link, the safety is horizontal (in the up position), and the red dot is below the safety. On Armalite, and the pictures of CZs that I have seen, when the safety is in the horizontal (up) position, you cannot see a red dot. When the safety is at angel on my Armalite, the red dot is above the safety.

    If you look at the drawings on page 16 and 17 of the manual, the Mega drawings figure #2 on page 16 shows the safety in the down position, and no read is shown it. Drawing #6 on page 17 shows the safety up, with a red dot showing (below the safety).

    I vaguely recall someone telling me that the Armalite AR-24 is more similarly to the Kilnic 2000 Light, and in drawing #1 on page 16 (labeled LIGHT), the safety is in the horizontal position, and no red dot os showing. The drawing for the LIGHT on page 17 - #5 - is a bit confusing, because the safety appears to be almost horizontal - but the red dot is above the safety.

    It looks to me as though the manual is saying that the Kilnic 2000 Light has a safety like the CZ-75 (swipe down to disengage the safety before firing), where the Kilnic Mega has the opposite (swipe up to disengage the safety before firing).

    Am I reading the drawings correctly?

    Mike
     
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  10. chicharrones
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    chicharrones needs more ammo

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    The photos on the website are confusing with the frame mounted safety showing a red dot with the safety in the up position. Exposed red paint is supposed to mean ready to fire.

    In the manual you link, there are definitely two different safeties. Frame mounted and slide mounted. It looks like the frame mounted sweeps down to be ready to fire and the slide safety swings up to be ready to fire. Which is pretty normal for frame mounted and slide mounted safeties these days.

    One easy way to remember a modern frame mounted safety or slide safety position is that the safety lever would be more parallel to the slide when the gun is ready to fire. If the safety is angled, then that would indicate being on safe. This would be whether it sweeps down or up. Of course, there are some old guns that don't follow this rule.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  11. I6turbo

    I6turbo Member

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    How the safety operates makes no difference to me. A while back, when some CZ haters were complaining about how their rifle safeties operate differently than whatever else those people were used to, I checked my guns and found that I have 14 different safeties among mine.

    I have no issues picking up any of those guns and operating them the way they were intended. I even had an Auto 5 with a left-hand cross-bolt safety (press the crossbolt behind the trigger from left to right to move it into the Off position) for a while before I changed it due to convenience, not due to lack of confidence that I could use it properly.

    That said, when someone expresses a lack of confidence in operating a gun with a safety that they aren't used to, I respect that. I appreciate the heads-up because I don't want them around me with said loaded gun.
     
  12. Mike P Wagner

    Mike P Wagner Member

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    That rule seems to work - the “down” position on the Armalite (and I think most CZ clones) is horizontal, and the psotion is at an angle. It looks like the Kilnic 200 Mega, the down postion is angled (disengaged), and the up psotion is horizontal. So in both cases, swiping away from horizontal engaging the safety, and swiping to horizontal is disengaging the safety.

    Even so, it seems like having weapons where the swipe to horizontal is in different directions would be confusing (at least to me) if was necessary to disengag the safety in a hurry.
     
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  13. Mike P Wagner

    Mike P Wagner Member

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    You are correct - I was wrong.
     
  14. DesertVet

    DesertVet Member

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    I have always been able to switch between the Walther or Beretta style safety and the Colt 1911 or Browning Hi Power type safety for some reason?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2018
  15. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    Hey, uh, your information is still visible there...

    At my current house, the knobs on the kitchen sink are installed backwards. I find myself turning sink knobs in all directions at work and home. I know with shotguns, I'm really used to manual crossbolt safeties. I've lost a few clay pigeons to automatic tang safeties when trying out a friend's shotgun. I'd really hate to find myself fumbling with a pistol safety in an emergency.

    I also don't like safeties that sweep up. It's a weak and unergonomic movement. They irk me, and I wouldn't want to learn any conflicting habits. If I lucked into such a pistol, that would mean condition 2 if I were to carry it, or otherwise it would be relegated to plinking/range use or other purposes.
     
  16. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    I decided several years ago that having a frame-mounted, down-to-fire safety was a requirement for any semi-auto pistol I would buy and intend to use under any kind of pressure (whether "real life" or competition). The idea of an up-to-fire safety.... :barf: The frame-DTF ones have the major advantage of being usable with continued pressure on them - sort of a firing-hand thumb rest. Completely eliminates the all the hand-wringing about "forgetting" the safety or accidentally activating it during use.
     
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  17. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I strongly dislike slide mounted safety's in general. I can't get used to a push up to fire safety.
     
  18. mdThanatos

    mdThanatos Member

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  19. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    I'd forgotten how long ago I learned this technique to disengage the slide mounted thumb safety...I think it was back in the late 90s or mid-2000

    I first learned it on the H&K P9S which could be carried in Condition 1, but it was much easier on the Beretta 92 as it's thumb safety is spring loaded.

    How applicable it is to other slide mounted thumb safeties depends on how proud the lever stands from the slide and how smoothly it's movement is
     
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  20. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Only guns I'll consider for serious use that have a safety have to have it down and in the location close enough to a 1911 safety that my muscle memory works.

    No up, no oddly placed ones.

    Though in reality I prefer either no safety or a 1911.
     
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  21. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    You hit the nail on the head for me. If you can’t put your safety where God and Browning intended you can keep it.
     
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