"Ghost guns" story on NBC news

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Stevenvalleyky, Feb 9, 2017.

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  1. Stevenvalleyky

    Stevenvalleyky Member

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    Was just watching the nightly news on NBC and they ran a story about "ghost guns" claiming that there is a loophole allowing criminals all over the country to buy kits which are showing up in crimes everywhere. I am not up to the laws on this and dont know much about the AR platform. I thought that to be legal the lowers couldn't be complete. Were they outright liars, just disingenuous or can you legally buy ready to assemble kits that dont need any machining, just assembly ? They said these guns dont have to be registered either. Clue me in guys and gals.
     
  2. dbmjr1

    dbmjr1 Member

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    The segment showed an ATF agent using a fixture and a drill to complete an 80% lower receiver. They made it look deceptively easy, and suggested it was something anyone could do.
     
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  3. glove

    glove Member

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    What do you expect from NBC.
     
  4. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    Do you really have to ask if NBC is being accurate in a sensationalized story about evil guns?

    80% receivers aren't legally guns. They can be used as materials to manufacture guns, which may or may not require registration depending on location and exact configuration.

    The reality is that guns are simple machines that can be built by anyone with access to some tools and patience, in hours not months. There are usable guns that were built with hand files and hack saws. An 80% receiver has had 80% of that work done already but it is still not a receiver until some significant work is done.
     
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  5. Peter Gun

    Peter Gun Member

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    The part of that claim I'm curious about is that the guns are "showing up in crimes everywhere".
    First I've heard of that.
     
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  6. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    If possession of a gun is a crime, then you can bet that guns acquired outside of normal channels will "show up at crime scenes everywhere".
     
  7. pintler

    pintler Member

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    Guns aren't hard to make. Sure, making an MOA capable barrel isn't easy, but making a gun good enough for a mugging isn't. In fact some of the simplest guns are full auto open bolt sub guns. Here's a blog that features improvised guns from around the world:
    https://homemadeguns.wordpress.com/
    if you page through that, you'll see everything from homemade 1911s to duct taped shotguns.

    For a gun good enough for a mugging or terror attack, you don't need rifling or durability or much in the way of accuracy.

    Not everyone has the skills needed, but it's not rocket science. I don't know enough chemistry to make meth, but I'm not under any illusions that outlawing amateur meth making will dry up the supply :)

    Moreover, with modern CNC machining, an unscrupulous shop owner who is behind on his lease payments can go in on a Sunday with the programs on a thumb drive, make a few guns, deliver them to a seller that night, and the only evidence Monday is a pile of chips. Outlawing hobby building only affects the law abiding.

    (I've made a 1911 frame starting from a rectangular chunk of metal, and an AR upper and lower from raw forgings. And if you want me to make the forgings by melting down old water pump housings or whatever, no problem :) )
     
  8. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    CA coined the terms a few years ago for the 80% builds and plastic Defense Distributed diy.

    For some sad comedy a longer version of the same comedy

    CA went on to great a law saying everything has to have a serial number. Even antiques that never had serial numbers from my understanding.


    Don't worry though, the crazy never leaves CA and goes national. Never has never will.

    Oh wait... never mind that last statement.

    ETA Mods, I hope I didn't violate any terms with that 1st vid.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
  9. 22250Rem

    22250Rem Member

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    The OP has just shown yet another reason I haven't watched NBC News since 2009. That was also the year I gave up on ABC and CBS. It's not only the misinformation issues and the exaggerations but also that anything positive about guns and/or the Second Amendment will be totally ignored. On the other hand; if there is something or anything that can be used to cast anything negative about guns/gun owners/ Second Amendment they will be all over it and quickly, too.
     
  10. kozak6

    kozak6 Member

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    That's fantastic! This is ancient news, so it looks like they are really struggling for anti-gun material.
     
  11. RPRNY

    RPRNY Member

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    Of course! All those AR15s that show up in crimes! More fake news.

    More people were murdered wih a hammer last year than by all semi-auto rifles.
     
  12. BrocLuno

    BrocLuno Member

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    You'd need to site the stat for that... It's not that I don't believe it's true. Just need the stat to counter the NBC bias.
     
  13. cjwils

    cjwils Member

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    Some of my anti-gun acquaintances and even some moderate acquaintances are no doubt already riled up by this NBC story. I am not familiar with the 80% receiver concept, so please give me a short, simple explanation for why this NBC story is bogus.
     
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  14. Gun Master

    Gun Master Member

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    Yes, I posted a similar request on another thread a few minutes ago, before I saw this one.
    I'm interested in replies.
     
  15. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    IMO it's not bogus persay, it's overly alarmist.

    Lower receiver is shipped legally roughly 80% finished with out serial numbers.

    The buyer finishes it at home. All legel per fed laws.

    The alarmist part is that they haven't been used in any note worthy crimes.
     
  16. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-11


    ETA for 2015
    https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2015/crime-in-the-u.s.-2015/tables/expanded_homicide_data_table_11_murder_circumstances_by_weapon_2015.xls

    All rifles = 252

    Shotguns = 269

    Blunt objects
    (clubs, hammers, etc.) = 437

    Personal weapons
    (hands,fists, feet, etc.) = 632
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
  17. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    Simple example:

    For $150ish you can buy a kit that includes a set of jigs, drill bits, and a part that outwardly looks like the frame of a Glock-like pistol. Polymer frame, metal insert. The frame needs holes drilled and sections milled out before you can install all the parts needed to make it work. With the jig and some power tools you can finish it in several hours.

    Then add another $85 or so for the parts to finish the frame. That means a trigger, mag release, etc..

    For another $450-1300 (depending on how fancy you want to be) or so you can then buy a slide, barrel, sights, and all the other parts needed to finish it into a nearly complete firearm.

    Then, for $15 you can add a magazine....

    Meaning that for maybe $700 (or a lot more if you want to be fancy) and several hours, assuming you don't mess up, you can build the equivalent of a 3rd generation glock 17, with no warranties, short a mag or two, case, and similar...

    A used gen3 Glock would run, what, $400-450?
     
  18. 1stmarine

    1stmarine Member

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    I think this new old news paranoia but anyway...

    Crimes being done by thugs!!! how is that possible? o_O
    So when the cartels send over the drugs, minors for prostitution or illegal labor, firearms and whatever else from who knows where how do we tackle that?
    How is the war on drugs and cartels going?

    Everyone conveniently avoids talking about any of that!

     
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  19. Stevenvalleyky

    Stevenvalleyky Member

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    I already knew that they were lying about all the "crimes" that these guns were showing up at since FBI stats just dont support what they are saying. Just didnt know if they shipped ready to assemble kits that needed no machine work like they implied(they dont). I feel the same about the MSM as others have mentioned. Story just kind pissed me off a bit.
     
  20. SC Shooter

    SC Shooter Member

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    In the greater scheme of things, most self respecting thugs will find it much easier to either steal a gun, or buy a quality stolen gun with his drug money profits than to take the time & effort to make a "ghost" gun. I don't see this as being of epidemic proportions.
     
  21. Peter Gun

    Peter Gun Member

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    Yes, that's what I was thinking. Seems really unlikely a criminal would make one of these for criminal use.
     
  22. shootstraight57

    shootstraight57 Member

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    Criminals don't care about serial numbers anyway! They file them down and when they are done using them they toss them. Price is the only concern they have when getting one
     
  23. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Yet there is a documented Mass Shooting in CA where the perp used a 80% lower.. (John Zawahri, Santa Monica, CA - 2013)
    Hence the uproar in CA.
     
  24. Dog Soldier

    Dog Soldier member

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    We all know that gang members and drug users spend days making an AR 15 to rob a "C" store for $40 dollars. How many home made guns have been confiscated by the BATF? Most guns used in crimes are stolen. How often are criminals charged for using a stolen gun? Do they ever mention those numbers?
     
  25. Ed Ames

    Ed Ames Member

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    The term "criminal" can obscure relevant differences.

    A person who sees mugging as a way to pay for a new pair of sneakers is going to behave differently than the person who is acting out long term plans based on ideology or insanity.

    Unfortunately that creates an opportunity to mislead. The peak severity of ideology/insanity driven crime is generally higher. There aren't many cases where 10+ people are shot by someone trying to rob a single c-store. However, the total harm is much lower because the big ideological/insanity driven incidents are extremely rare. Someone who wishes to manipulate results can conflate the two to lead people to incorrect conclusions. They will talk about how an ideology/insanity crime was committed with a homemade gun, and then talk about how many people are killed in robberies/drug crimes, implying that the homemade guns are used across both groups.

    The reality is that most people choose the easiest path to accomplish their goals. If your goal involves having a gun, the easiest path is buying from a gun store. If you can't do that, straw purchase, borrowing, buying used, or stealing (depending on circumstances). If you can't do those, building from kits and parts. On and on until they are sitting in the dark with a hand file and a block of steel making a pistol frame. If people want it badly enough they will figure out a way no matter what barrier you put up...and if one person figures out a way, they can make money helping others so it tends to spread quickly.
     
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