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Giving pistol as gift question - Holiday Gift Thread

Discussion in 'Legal' started by 98C5, Dec 5, 2011.

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  1. kb58

    kb58 Member

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    I'm in the dreaded California everyone hates. I just purchased two Ruger Mk IIIs (sequential numbers) with the intention of giving one to my wife for her birthday. I mentioned it to my FFL at the time and I'm pretty sure he said that it has to go through him. Are the rules you guys quoting above Federal or state... though even as I type this I realize that Cali probably did something different anyway...
     
  2. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    These are FEDERAL laws. The states may be more restrictive. CA IS.

    Here is the first line from the NRA's sheet on CA:

    However, the good news is that you don't have to go through the waiting period with immediate family.

    http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/CASL.pdf
     
  3. kb58

    kb58 Member

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    Yeah okay, thanks. Right now things are at a tentative stage, with my wife still thinking that guns are evil. It would probably be best to just loan it to her at the range, at least until the novelty wears off. I doubt her getting grilled by a gun-loving FFL is going to spin things in a positive direction, lol.

    Thanks again.
     
  4. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Just loan it to them

    State laws may vary, but federally, you can loan a firearm to a non-prohibited person.

    Now, there is an internet interpretation of the law that would put a borrower in violation of the law if the loaner is from another state and the gun is borrowed outside of that state. But despite the inharmonious wording of the law, the ATF has told me that they don't interpret it that way. Here's what their FAQ says...
    I keep meaning to send a letter to their Rregulatory Enforcement office, but I'm lazy.
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I think the issue with that one is that, while you may loan a firearm to a person FROM any state, and while you may borrow a firearm IN any state, going to another state and borrowing a firearm and bringing it home with you violates Title 18, Chapter 44, Part 1, Section 922 (A)(3):

    "§ 922. Unlawful acts
    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...
    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, ..."

    So it certainly does seem as though you can legally loan something to someone to use while they are visiting, but they can't take that firearm home with them when they go.
     
  6. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    That's what I was referring to, yes.

    There are two ways to borrow a firearm in violation of the written law:
    • Bring it back into your state (from a lender out of state).
    • The out of state lender, leaves it with you in your state.
    When I spoke to the ATF, I made it clear on these specific points, but was told that they don't interpret it that way (I know the phone call means nothing). You're pushing me boy! I'll write that letter, I will! ;)

    So Granpa comes out here to hunt elk with me, has a medical emergency and has to fly back to his state, leaving me with his rifle. I'm breaking federal law by holding onto it... ATF says no, THR says yes! :D
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2011
  7. Hondo 60
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    Hondo 60 Member

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    Don't want to hi-jack the thread, but I also have a "gifting" question.

    I know a person has to be 21 years of age in order to purchase a firearm from an FLL.
    But at what age can a person receive a firearm as a gift?

    I'm thinking of giving a firearm to my nephew.
    He goes with me to the range on a regular basis & it'd be neat for him to have his own gun to shoot.
    He's 18 & lives in the same county as I.
     
  8. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    I think this is the type of thread where hi-jacking is going to be expected/part of the experience. :)

    Per Federal law, the minimum age is 18 because the gift (your scenario) is on the same level as if he bought it, not through a dealer, but a private FTF with someone like you. Your state law might say something different than the federal law though.
     
  9. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    18 is the age limit in Federal law 18 USC 922 (x) and Wisconsin state law:

    https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/60
     
  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    21 years of age is the federal minimum to buy a handgun from a dealer. 18 is the federal minimum to buy a rifle or shotgun from a dealer.

    Gifting or private sales of a handgun requires that the recipient be 18.

    Gifting or private sales of a rifle or shotgun, the legal minimums are set by the states.
     
  11. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Please do! Love to get them to make a statement one way or another. Always fun to see them enforce the law in direct contradiction of the text.
     
  12. Hondo 60
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    Hondo 60 Member

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    CoRoMo, NavyLCDR & Sam1911

    Thanks for the replies! I appreciate it.
     
  13. 98C5

    98C5 Member

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    Well, I called an FFL transfer Pawn shop/gun dealer and they said all I need is a document stating the pistol is a gift and for him and myself to sign it.

    Sound right?
     
  14. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    The document isn't necessary. All that is required is that they process a Form 4473 for the transfer.
     
  15. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Is 98C5 talking about a gift across state lines or just within his state?
     
  16. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    He said:
    It appears he wants to give a gun as a gift to someone in another state.
     
  17. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Oh yeah. He's the OP and we're on page 2!

    Dang me.

    I tried to warn him!
     
  18. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    :D

    "Dang me, dang me!
    They oughta take a rope and hang me
    High from the highest tree
    Woman would you weep for me."
     
  19. outdoorsman1

    outdoorsman1 Member

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    To Whoom It May Concern.....

    Just so you know....

    I have a CCW License from the State of Wisconsin and a Utah State Permit, both making it legal for me to carry in many other states...

    If anyone out there has an urge or need to give a firearm as a gift, I would be happy to provide the address of my FFL dealer.....:D

    Add you have my word I would give them all good homes by keep them fed regularly along with regular bathing, and every night, telling each and every one of them how much I love them...

    Don't you just love Christmas...

    Outdoorsman1
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  20. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Without the FFL transfer which means a form 4473 and NICS check done by the FFL, your signed document would be documenting (confessing) that two felonies were committed.
     
  21. 98C5

    98C5 Member

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    Not a problem all.

    I will in fact do the FFL transfer when I get there.

    I appreciate everyones advice!!

    Thanks!
     
  22. JASEDS

    JASEDS Member

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    Is a background check needed if the person recieving the gift already has a CCW permit
     
  23. Ultravox

    Ultravox Member

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    Just as an FYI, Minnesota changed their law this year and all handgun and assault weapon transfers now require the MN resident to either have a Permit to Purchase or a CCW permit or the seller needs to fill out a transfer form and turn it in to the local chief of police.

    This is now true for person to person transfers as well as FFL transfers.

    The statute in question: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=624.7132
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2011
  24. Librarian

    Librarian Member

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    California has an exception for spouses; if you buy the gun, it's probably community property anyway, but you can 'transmute' the gun to your wife's property by filing a form with a fee - no need to see your Friendly Local FFL twice.

    See http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Transferring_Firearms_Among_Some_Family_Members
     
  25. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    Welcome to THR!

    If the gift crosses state lines, the transaction must go through a dealer, which would include a form 4473 and *usually* a NICS background check. Now, if the recipient's state is one that allows buyer to present a carry permit in lieu of the NICS check, then the transaction would go through a licensed dealer, the form 4473 filled out, and the carry permit would substitute for the background check.

    My state isn't one that utilizes the carry permit substitution practice, so I'm only about 98% sure on what I'm telling you here, but this is what I understand it to be.
     
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