Glock 20 Stopping Power?

Seems to me, if Im going somewhere where the gun I normally carry wont be enough, then I bring along a gun thats appropriate for the critters involved. If aggressive bears and other critters are seriously the problem and likely, why are you choosing a handgun?

And unless youre willing to put in the time and effort to be as good with the more powerful handgun as you are with what you already use, and in all respects, what are you actually gaining, if you cant shoot it on demand, like it needs to be shot? And by that, I mean think a Tueller Drill on steroids.


This guy did a pretty decent job of being a little more realistic about things here, practice wise. And of the guns he used, a 10mm Glock was the gun of choice...



He does one with a couple of long guns too.

 
JCooperfan1911 said:
Thanks gang, so a 6” 10mm should have more ability to stop a dangerous threat vs a 4” 9mm that would be worth the expenditure in cost and additional size/weight?
Click to expand...
Yep, it's solid physics. 147 gr 9mm doing its best to get close to 1100fps from a pistol vs 10mm 220gr at about 1200fps.
 
.38 Special said:
The 10mm is a fine cartridge, obviously more powerful than a 9mm, and as a previous poster noted, if I'm attacked by a bear I'd rather have a 10mm than a 9mm.

I don't consider either to be a good cartridge against dangerous game, except perhaps mountain lions. Realistically, the 10mm is pretty firmly in .357 Magnum country, and while that's a marvelous cartridge, it's not a dangerous game stopper either - I mean, people argue about whether it's adequate for deer hunting.
Click to expand...

I used to feel the same way. But that was back when I was shooting 50 rounds of .44 magnum every week and could shoot all 6 reasonably quickly and accurately Without adjusting my grip at all. But I found constant practice was required to maintain that skill, and shooting one handed was very challenging.

Then I started to ask myself what exactly a .430" 300gr WFN at 1200fps was going to do to a charging grizzly if I missed the CNS. Certainly a wound of around a 1" diameter was possible for some considerable distance into the bear. With the additional potential of creating a new hole in its rump as the bullet went out the back end. Were either of those things going to stop the bear before it mauled me? I really couldn't say they would.

So I decided what I needed was faster follow up shots in a controllable format, with as much wounding potential as I could handle whilst still controlling the recoil, even shooting one handed. Penetration deeper than 4 feet seemed pointless because the guts would plug any such wound on the rear half of the animal. With each shot that missed the CNS, I wanted damage in and through the thoracic cavity, along with the ability to break bones. But I also wanted to get more hits on target quickly.

My threshold for such shooting is 10mm and .357 Magnum. Others may have a higher threshold, or a lower one. My suggestion is that each person figure out where that is for themselves.
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
Thanks gang, so a 6” 10mm should have more ability to stop a dangerous threat vs a 4” 9mm that would be worth the expenditure in cost and additional size/weight?
Click to expand...

What do you think increases a bullets potential to stop threats ASAP? (same shot placement) Diameter & Penetration, right?
As I demonstrated in post #5 I can find a 9mm that delivers a similar gel result to a 10mm yet the 10mm is hitting the gel with 2x the KE.
I could do the same for 38 special and 357 mag, find an example where expansion and penetration is the same, but 357 Mag has 2x the KE.
Do most people consider 357 Mag to have better ASAP potential than 38 special, yes; and why is that? KE.

How about a 180 gr. bullet @ 1,328 fps / 705# KE - 17 3/4'' penetration, another example of 10mm is not over penetrative.
A comment from the tester about damage to the gel, about 4 min. into the video, "I have not seen anything like that".
 
I hike/camp in black bear country quite often and used a G20 for years. Then moved to the more compact G29 and more recently one of the Smith M&P Compacts with a 4" barrel. I liked the Glocks well enough but was never comfortable with a loaded chamber in a Glock in my sleeping bag at night. During the day, while in a holster yes. The Smith has a 1911 style safety and that is the biggest advantage for me and why I went from Glock to Smith. Both are good.

For raw power 44 mag revolver wins, especially with longer barrels. But they are also bigger, heavier, limited to 6 rounds and there isn't a practical way to attach a light. When camping having a light mounted on the pistol is a big advantage for me. And some of the better 10mm loads are pretty close to 44 mag, especially when compared to 44 mag from 4" or shorter barrels.

Buffalo Bore and Double Tap sell loads with 200-220 gr bullets at 1200-1300 fps Those hardcast loads penetrate VERY deep for use on large predators. All of that ammo is EXPENSIVE. But I figure 2 boxes will last a lifetime. I shoot cheaper ammo at the range. I've seen video or Cape Buffalo being taken with these loads and they have successfully stopped big bear attacks in Alaska.

HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN Handgun Ammunition (buffalobore.com)

But on the other hand, those same ammo companies make heavy for caliber hardcast loads in 9mm and 45 ACP. The more I hear about these loads I'm thinking they may be all most of us need, especially in black bear country. Black bear aren't nearly as big, nor as aggressive as their northern cousins. Several years ago, there was a well-documented case where Phil Shoemaker stopped a brown bear in Alaska who attacked a fisherman he was guiding with 147 gr hardcast 9mm ammo from Buffalo Bore.

When I go back to Yellowstone where grizzlies live, I'll carry my 10mm. But for black bear, I'd seriously look at just buying some of this ammo if I had a 9mm or 45 that I liked and didn't want to buy another gun.

9MM +P OUTDOORSMAN (buffalobore.com)

45 ACP +P OUTDOORSMAN (buffalobore.com)
 
CDW4ME said:
What do you think increases a bullets potential to stop threats ASAP? (same shot placement) Diameter & Penetration, right?
As I demonstrated in post #5 I can find a 9mm that delivers a similar gel result to a 10mm yet the 10mm is hitting the gel with 2x the KE.
Click to expand...
Yeah, you chose 150gr bullet for 9mm and 155gr bullet for 10mm, both are non-typical for their calibers.

The "energy dump" theory went out the window in the 1980's.

When shooting something, especially something big and dangerous, you need to get a bullet to reach something important in the body. Typically, folks are not choosing 155gr hollow point bullets for their 10mm woods gun (unless they are solid copper penetrator rounds). The 180gr + 10mm bullets are going to penetrate deeper through thick bodies, and are more likely the choice for woods use.
 
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JCF, I've had no bear encounters but have used 9 and 10mm pistols for a very long time. I consider the 10 to be at a significantly higher power level than the 9, however one chooses to define power. Controllability is important, but far easier to go from 9 to 10mm, than 10mm to .44 Magnum, IMHO. I have a single action .454 Casull, but have always believed it unlikely that I would be unable to utilize it effectively against something like a sudden bear attack. This, because of having to cock the single action, and due to the pronounced recoil of the .454 cartridge. In such a situation, I don't think my results would any better than that of the young fellow in the video during the SA test. If one is concerned about large toothy carnivores, I do believe 10mm, especially in a semi-auto pistol or DA revolver, is worthy of consideration...
 
Depends on your income and what animal threat you're talking about.

If you just wanna buy a 10mm I will hop on here and enable ya!

If things are tight, like they are all over right now due to several years of terrible decisions at top levels...

Get some hard cast 147 grain 9mm rounds and call it a day. Shoemaker took that grizzly down. Yeah yeah yeah. Sometimes you gotta dance with the one who brung ya.

Buffalo bore hardcast 9mm plus p WILL penetrate a grizz skull and will go far enough to hit vitals etc.

Yes, 10mm is better. No doubt.

So is 357 mag. And 44 mag and 45 colt are better, etc.
 
JTQ said:
The "energy dump" theory went out the window in the 1980's.
Click to expand...

I’ve seen a lot of those tests, but I still think through my experiences KE does have an effect on incapacitation. It’s not just about getting a bullet to the vitals.

I’ve hunted with a 250gr expanding bullet that leaves the muzzle at 2,350-2,400fps at the muzzle and the effect on game is very substantial and quick. I don’t think a 150gr leaving at the same speed will ever have the results of the 250gr KE performance, despite both getting to the vitals.

So a 9mm 147gr hardcast penetrating to the vitals in my opinion is going to give up some terminal performance to that of a 220gr going the same speed and penetrating similarly. Physics demands that energy has to go somewhere, that somewhere is into the target and my personal experiences lead me to believe that.
 
If you need to use the G20 you have, upgrade to the 5" KKM barrel. Have good metal night sights, regulated to the distance you feel comfortable with. I chose 50 yards. Sight in with the Underwood hard cast 200/220gn. Practice with what you like.

Yes, a 10mm loaded to its potential is going to out perform any 9mm loading. By a lot. A lot of the gel tests Ive seen are using the FBI parameters for SD rounds. That is a set standard ammo companies use. So with those constraints, a 9mm and a 10mm wil penetrate about the same, as intended. Those are not full tilt 10mm's. Back woods defense needs fast/heavy deep penetration.

The POI will be diffrent, thats OK. As long as you sight it in at your chosen distance with your #1 choice of heavy ammo, and carry that ammo when out in the wilds, I sure you are prepared about as well as you can be.

Practice shooting accurate and fast from the draw. If you should ever be unfortunate to have a head on attack by big/furry with teeth and claws, you won't have much time.

Don't stop shooting to assess damage, keep shooting until it stops moving. This is not hunting advice, it's survival.

Wild predators are faster than most can imagine. Make a little noise while you're out there. Chances are you'll never see one. They don't want to deal with you anymore than you want to deal with them.

Not a 100% perfect plan, but nothing is. Prep the best you can. Watch a few youtube vids on wild animal attacks. Prepare accordingly. It is a rare event if you use a bit of caution.
 
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JTQ said:
The "energy dump" theory went out the window in the 1980's.
Click to expand...

I've seen evidence to support it. I've never seen any disproving it. So when you say "out the window", what you really mean is that Fackler and Co. denied it, but never backed up their opinion with science by recreating any of the testing and publishing their results. Only an appeal to their own authority, and an attempt to discredit the evidence in support of it.
 
trackskippy said:
Seems to me, if Im going somewhere where the gun I normally carry wont be enough, then I bring along a gun thats appropriate for the critters involved. If aggressive bears and other critters are seriously the problem and likely, why are you choosing a handgun?

And unless youre willing to put in the time and effort to be as good with the more powerful handgun as you are with what you already use, and in all respects, what are you actually gaining, if you cant shoot it on demand, like it needs to be shot? And by that, I mean think a Tueller Drill on steroids.


This guy did a pretty decent job of being a little more realistic about things here, practice wise. And of the guns he used, a 10mm Glock was the gun of choice...



He does one with a couple of long guns too.

Click to expand...

One key takeaway from the handgun video is the need to get dressed like you will be in the field and practice drawing and firing. More than once. Find out what it takes to get a grip on the gun and find out if your jacket fouls the draw before it's too late.

I am guilty of not doing so, but I intend to this spring and summer. As far as shooting a charging bear, the G20 is the clear winner in his video. Guess I'll keep carrying mine in the chest holster.
 
tominboise said:
One key takeaway from the handgun video is the need to get dressed like you will be in the field and practice drawing and firing. More than once. Find out what it takes to get a grip on the gun and find out if your jacket fouls the draw before it's too late.

I am guilty of not doing so, but I intend to this spring and summer. As far as shooting a charging bear, the G20 is the clear winner in his video. Guess I'll keep carrying mine in the chest holster.
Click to expand...
Thats just it, I think most arent the least bit realistic about things here, and are more worried about cool guns, paper numbers and gel performance, and how well they target shoot.

At least the boy in the video was drawing from the holsters he uses and was shooting in a somewhat realistic manner and on a somewhat realistic target. It would have been better, as you said, if he was wearing what he normally would and worked from that, but hey, he's light years ahead of many if not most I'll bet. And in a real world, close in situation or not, the "real" target is likely going to be a lot quicker and even unexpected.

His choice of guns to use was, Im sure an eye-opener for those who insist that things like the SA Ruger Blackhawks are a perfect choice for this sort of thing. Even the DA revolvers didnt fair too well. Then again, if youre not practicing shooting like youre most likely going to have to with whatever your choice is, I seriously doubt its really going to make much of a difference in what you use.

If ever there's something that helps make "shooting without thought" understood, this is a good start.
 
If your gonna put a 6” barrel in a G20, why not just get a G40?

I don’t feel under powered with a G40 and 200 or 220 gr Underwood Hardcast ammo
 
I found myself between a sow bear and her cub last September. The sow charged in my direction but stopped behind a blackberry thicket about 30 yards from me when her cub quickly skidded down the tree it had climbed for safety from me and ran off in the woods. Shortly afterwards, the sow bolted into the woods after the cub.

I was mountain biking at the time. I carry a G19 loaded with Federal 147gr HST when I mountain bike.

After the bear encounter I switched my outdoor load to the Lehigh 115gr Xtreme Penetrator, which I handload to Underwood +P velocity from my G19.

I never considered changing to a larger caliber because what I hit is more important than what I hit with.
 
I got nothing to add as far as bears, stopping power,KE, energy dump, yadda yadda. I just came here to say I made the first layaway payment on a Gen 5 Glock 20 and this is the first semiauto I’ve purchased in a couple years. I’m revolver nut, but I want to learn a new caliber to load for and the Glock 20 seemed like a decent way to start loading for and learn to shoot it effectively. All brands have been known to make a turd here and there. We live a golden age of modern manufacturing and it’s hard to purchase a bad gun nowadays. Have fun OP !
 
I have had a Glock 20 for over 21 years and find it a useful companion. I bought the gun for a moose hunting trip to Alaska and it worked well up there. It froze every night, was damp every day, and fired at the end of the 10 day trip when we were having some fun waiting for the float plane. I then began to use the 20 for hog hunting in Texas. I discovered that not only was the 10mm popular in AK it was also popular in TX.

We catch the pigs with dogs and usually stab them. Occasionally, a pig will get into a place where we can't use a knife and we would then shoot them. I don't know how many pigs I have shot with it, but it is a lot. I used a lot of 200 grn. JHP Double Taps. The 10mm had plenty of power, did not over penetrate, and worked well. It was nice to have 15 rounds onboard and easy to carry a couple of other mags of spare ammo. The gun is basically weather proof and easily handled foul weather.

As a bonus, I found a police trade-in Glock 21 upper for about 300 bucks a few years ago. With a simple swap of slides and magazines, I have a Glock 21. This allows me to practice with less expensive .45 and get more use out of the gun. I have shot the 21 against some very high-end 1911's and it's accuracy was on par with them. This is how I mostly shoot the gun now.

I am not going into stopping power or any of that. I think we can all decide for ourselves what is adequate and what we can shoot accurately.

As a nice field pistol, the 20 is great. The 10mm works well shooting at larger pigs. Paired with a 21 slide you have a very versatile handgun.

If the frame fits your hand, I can see no drawbacks to a Glock 20, except possibly ammo costs.
 
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JCooperfan1911 said:
I think they look really ugly and ungainly, are heavier, and wouldn’t allow the use of the shorter 4.5” barrel for applications where a smaller OAL would be ideal. Plus the G20 has more historical presidence behind it.
Click to expand...

I have both the gen4 G20 and G40, they are the same gun minus the longer barrel and optic ready slide on the 40. They both shoot good. Ive tested a several different brands of ammo in both of them and they all have worked well. Some people have said that the full powered stuff don't cycle well from their glock 20s/40s, I've never had that issue. Granted, I dont shoot the lead offerings from buffalo bore, but I have shot some of the underwood solid copper stuff that is around 700 pounds of energy without issue. Fiocchi and pmc both put out a decent mid power offering that is a step above 9mm or .40s&w.

As a side note, you could pick up the 20, and just buy an aftermarket 6'' barrel to use whenever you wanted it. It looks funky sticking out the end of the slide, but it works just fine.
 
JTQ said:
Yeah, you chose 150gr bullet for 9mm and 155gr bullet for 10mm, both are non-typical for their calibers.

The "energy dump" theory went out the window in the 1980's.

When shooting something, especially something big and dangerous, you need to get a bullet to reach something important in the body. Typically, folks are not choosing 155gr hollow point bullets for their 10mm woods gun (unless they are solid copper penetrator rounds). The 180gr + 10mm bullets are going to penetrate deeper through thick bodies, and are more likely the choice for woods use.
Click to expand...

I don't know if you are missing my point or trying to say my point is invalid.
I chose them because they expanded to the same diameter in gel.
Lets try this again.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/
These two bullets perform basically the same in gel, same penetration & expansion.
4'' 38 Special 158 LSWCHP+P 13.4'' / .56 - 921 fps - 298# KE
4'' 357 Mag 125 SJHP 13.6'' / .54 - 1,473 fps - 602# KE

You commented on bullet weight and the 38 special in this example has a heavier bullet.

Which one of those do you think has better ASAP potential? Note I did not use the term "energy dump" now or before.
You think the 38 has better ASAP potential? I doubt it.
Are they equal in ASAP potential? That is what your reply to me indicates, which is why I took the time to clarify. (FYI, you are not "educating" me)
You think the 357 Mag has better ASAP potential? You probably do, just admit it. If not, LOL.
 
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