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Glock 26 vs. Glock 27 reliability?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by TheProf, Dec 20, 2010.

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  1. TheProf

    TheProf Member

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    Anyone else observed this...

    From my experience...my Glock 26 is 99.999% reliable whereas my Glock 27 is 99.5% reliable.

    I'm assuming its human error on my part...due to the G27's greater recoil.

    But I'm wondering....from an engineering standpoint.... does the G26 tolerate human error more so than the G27 (if we take the human error due to greater recoil)?

    1. Has anyone else seen this from PERSONAL experience?
     
  2. docnyt

    docnyt Member

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    Reliable as in go bang every time?

    I'm not sure 0.49% is even noticeable?
     
  3. TheProf

    TheProf Member

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    Reliable = meaning, no FTF, FTE, etc.
     
  4. joe_security

    joe_security Member

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    A family member has the G26. Ive never seen or heard of it malfunctioning, ever. Its one of the most accurate you will find anywhere.
     
  5. M1key

    M1key Member

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    My wife can make the G26 malfunction. :uhoh:

    Then I remind her, "Honey, remember to lock your wrist."

    "Oh, okay."

    Problem solved. :cool:

    (She normally shoots the 19)


    M
     
  6. G27RR

    G27RR Member

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    I don't have a 26 for comparison, but I've had no failures to date with my 27. Maybe you need a firmer grip on the 27 vs the 26? The 27 is snappy, so I could see that causing some malfunctions if your grip is off every so often.
     
  7. M1key

    M1key Member

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    The stiffer felt recoil of the 40 might have a greater tendency to induce a "limp-wrist" malfunction, at least with the aforementioned wife.

    She pulled the trigger twice on my G27 loaded with 155 Gold Dots, and said, "Okay, that's enough."

    :rolleyes:

    M
     
  8. Warhawk83

    Warhawk83 Member

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    I've fired about 350 rounds out of my G27 and zero malfunctions so far.
     
  9. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    I've observed something similar involving the G26/27's that I own. I've fired more than 10,000 rounds through the G27 and I'm approaching 11,000 rounds with my first G26, so I've had some time to experience and observe their functioning in my hands.

    I've experienced upwards of maybe a dozen feeding & functioning issues with my G27. These have ranged from a couple of obvious ammunition issues, some magazine issues and the rest are what I'd categorize as shooter-induced. This last category includes using the G27 for fast & demanding training & practice drills which can introduce the opportunity for some unintended flex in my strong or weak hand grip, as well as my wrist not remaining locked.

    I'd think it reasonable to consider that the increased felt recoil of the .40 might have an influence in this regard.

    The only issue I've experienced and observed involving my G26 has been with the ejection pattern.

    If I relax my grip ever so slightly, or allow my wrist lock to soften, I can get empty cases in my face, chest or even over my left shoulder (and I'm right-handed).

    This condition can occur more frequently when using lower power loads and when it involves the last round. In the case of the former situation I'd think it has something to do with slide velocity and the strong recoil spring ... and in the case of the latter I'd think it likely also influenced by not having another live round in the magazine to help keep the empty case being extracted from slipping a bit lower before impacting the ejector. Neither of these things are exactly unknown to occur in other pistol designs and platforms.

    I see a fair number of folks shoot both for qualifications. Discounting some parts breakage I've observed (which can happen with any mechanical device, including firearms ;) ), I've seen some feeding issues arise when folks have been using G27's and G23 magazines. The slide velocity generated in the .40 can sometimes have an effect on such things when weakening or reduced recoil & mag spring tension is occurring.

    In the wearable parts replacement schedule I received from Glock regarding .40's being used by LE, it's recommended that the recoil spring assembly is replaced every 3,000 rounds in the G27 and the magazine springs every 5,000 rounds. However, it's also listed as being recommended that the recoil spring is checked and tested using the Glock recoil spring field test at each range session or qualification, and the recoil spring replaced more often as may be needed.

    The locking block pin & slide lock are a couple of other wearable parts recommended for replacement at 5,000 rounds, BTW. When I replaced the ones in my own G27, at 10,000 rounds, I noticed the locking block pin exhibited some noticeable wear and burred spots where it had been contacting the locking block. I saw another one I removed from another instructor's G23, which had supposedly only been fired upwards of 2,000 - 2,500 rounds, and it looked like it had been peened, burred and subjected to road rash, as well. I was told in my last Glock armorer class that Glock had changed the heat treating of the locking block pins more than a couple of years prior to that class (and that's coming up on 3 years ago).

    I can't give you a definitive answer to your question about the G26 being more tolerant of human error (shooter influence), but I'd suspect the lighter recoiling G26 might experience less recoil-induced effects due to the G26 using the same recoil spring assembly (and other parts) as the harder recoiling G27. I can notice more felt recoil in my G27 when using 180gr loads than when I'm shooting 115gr +P+ & 127gr +P+ loads in my G26 ... (and standard pressure 147gr & 124gr +P loads seem rather mild by comparison, although it must be remembered that not all +P loads are the same) ... but it should also be remembered that how felt recoil is perceived by each individual can vary and is a somewhat subjective matter. ;)

    Something else to possibly consider is that shooting a pistol while standing comfortably on a firing line, taking plenty of time between shoots and making sure grip technique remains constant, resting when necessary, can be somewhat different than when shooting the same gun/ammo in a fast-paced, demanding and difficult training/qual situation which tasks the shooter to not only shoot the gun at an intended target, but do so while resolving tactical problems and making judgment calls about shoot/no-shoot conditions.

    Adding movement (meaning shooting both during and between movement) , the use of 1 & 2-handed shooting (using the non-dominant hand for both) and effectively utilizing cover/barricade and perhaps while using a hand held light ... can all create potential conditions and introduce stresses which might distract a shooter from being able to calmly use their "optimal" grip & shooting techniques unless a lot of training & practice is frequently done. Even then a momentary distraction or physical influence can still occur and affect the shooter's ability to effectively use their skillset.

    Now, think about what happens when the body is subjected to the physical and mental stresses induced by the hormonal fear response and how it might have an adverse effect upon gross & fine motor skills. It's been discussed by some authoritative sources that frequent & proper training can help mitigate this sort of problem, allowing ingrained training (reinforced by proper practice) to subconsciously be available under stress.

    Hmmm, sorry if I got side-tracked. Hope some of my rambling might be relevant to your questions ...

    I can also offer that I work rather hard with my various .40's, which includes my G27, to be better able to handle the increased recoil forces often felt over similar models chambered in 9mm. I've found that the more I work hard with my .40's, the better I seem to do when it comes to my 9's, too. Sort of a win-win for me, I think.
     
  10. SIGLBER

    SIGLBER Member

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    I've had both. I got caught up in the .40 craze for awhile. Both guns were totally reliable and I have trusted my life to both. The only problen with the 27 is if you shoot alot (and I do) and use the higher velocity rounds the 27 after awhile takes one hell of a beating. Mine eventually broke the locking block and cracked the frame.
    I've seen the ame thing with buddies shooting both the baby .357 and .40. They are really hard on the little guns. I think they are equal in reliability until the .357 or .40 beats the little gun to death. The 9mm unless all you use is +P+ will be around for ever. So in the long term I think you will have more durability thus reliability with the 26. Of course you may not put as many rounds through your gun as I did mine. And it took many years. I'd still go with the G26 after my experience.
     
  11. M1key

    M1key Member

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    BTW, my G27 and G33 both have the Wolf 20# spring sets.



    M
     
  12. fmcdave

    fmcdave Member

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    Where can one get a copy of the "wearable parts replacement schedule". I have a few Glocks including a 23C which I have shot a LOT. The only think I have replaced is the firing pin spring.
     
  13. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    I think that trend is typical of any 40 vs 9mm debate. While the 40's tend to be far more than acceptably reliable, the 9 is always just a touch more reliable. Gun designers have had nearly 100 years more experience to perfect the 9.
     
  14. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    It was provided to armorers.

    It covers the 3rd gen and older .40 models in common use by LE customers, meaning G22/22RTF, G23/23RTF, G27 & G35.

    For the G23's the list shows recommended replacement as follows:
    Recoil spring assembly - 2,000 rounds
    Magazine spring - 2,000 rounds
    Firing Pin safety - 5,000 rounds
    Firing pin safety spring - 5,000 rounds
    Firing pin spring - 5,000 rounds
    Slide lock - 5,000 rounds
    Trigger spring (coil) - 5,000 rounds
    Locking block pin - 5,000 rounds

    It further states that for best results, magazine springs should be replaced at least every other time the recoil spring assembly is replaced.

    I believe the list was made in '08, and I was later told by Glock that the current production trigger coil spring (light gray color) is now considered to be a lifetime part (unless they decide otherwise at some point).

    During my last Glock class the instructor kept mentioning that if we're seeing broken locking blocks, locking block pins & trigger pins that we're not replacing the recoil springs often enough. ;)

    I've not seen or received a similar list for other models/calibers of Glocks, but that might be because the .40's are the most common models/caliber being used by Glock's LE customers, and the .40 is hard on guns (but so is the .357SIG when it comes to recoil forces).

    The latest armorer manual doesn't list a round-count replacement recommendation, but it does recommend periodic inspection and evaluation of a number of parts considered to be wearable parts. It defines wearable parts as those parts which by their very nature will not maintain absolute factory specifications forever and will need to be monitored periodically for satisfactory function. The parts listed are all springs, extractors, firing pins, firing pin safeties and magazine followers and mag bodies. It reminds armorers that any spring can become damaged, weakened, worn or broken and should be evaluated often.

    The last time I asked about the Gen4 recoil spring assemblies in the larger guns, I was told that it's expected they ought to be good for approx 5,000 - 7,000 rounds. Since Glock has some new lighter sprung assemblies for the G17/19, though, I don't know how that will affect things.
     
  15. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    A reliable gun should work 100% of the time, not 99.99999%... My G26-GenIII has about 4000 rounds of various make ammo through it, and it has digested them all without a single miss. I can't vouch for the G27 as I have never owned one. If you experience any failures with quality ammo, there is something wrong that needs to be addressed.
     
  16. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    There are some older .40 mags out there that contribute to Glock .40 jams - especially the G27. With the updated 11 coil springs, I haven't had any problems with mine.

    I'd be pretty thrilled with 99.99999%. That's one malfunction per 10 million rounds. Once you get that far with your G26, come back and tell us if it met your standards. :) Also, take some notes as to how many ammo-related malfunctions you get out of that 10 million. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
  17. easyg

    easyg Member

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    I've never had any failures with my Glock 27 or my Glock 23.

    I don't buy the notion that the .40 is more prone to failure than the 9mm.
    I think some folks are just more recoil sensitive than others.
     
  18. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    It is easier to get long thin cartridges to feed more reliably than shorter fatter cartridges. The 9mm is also slightly thinner at the front than the back which helps. The cartridge case is not straight walled like the 40 and 45

    This difference alone would not prevent me from buying another cartridge, the gun design/quality and ammo quality are more important anyway. But traditionally 9mm rounds have proven to be more reliable.
     
  19. fastbolt

    fastbolt Member

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    I'm not sure anyone is saying the .40 is "more prone to failure".

    I've attended a number of armorer classes for some different firearm manufacturers who provide firearms to LE customers. It's common to hear it mentioned in such classes that the .40 S&W and .357SIG are harder on guns than 9mm and .45 ACP.

    Sure, they may be "harder" on some shooters when it comes to how some folks perceive felt recoil, as well, but they're still hard on the actual guns, too.

    The use of some of the lighter bullet weight ammunition, meaning below 180gr loads, can also exacerbate this issue for both shooters and guns. The 155gr loads were found to be harder on the Beretta 96's used in fed LE service than the 9mm was on the 92's, for example.
     
  20. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    Take things too literally, and miss the point entirely.


    ...
     
  21. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    Good grief! I guess I should have included a smiley face.

    Here: :neener::neener:
     
  22. GLOOB

    GLOOB Member

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    This is a given. Just like shooting +P+ ammo through a 9mm, it'll wear out faster. Shooting factory .40 is like shooting +P+ ammo all the time. If you want to practice with soft plinking ammo, you can always start reloading. But even if your gun wears out after 25,000 rounds, that's over the course of over $6,000 worth of ammo. At this point, the gun could be considered an ancillary cost. Besides that, many of these guns will never be asked to shoot more than a few thousand rounds.
     
  23. KBintheSLC

    KBintheSLC Member

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    Just curious... where did you get this idea? I keep hearing it thrown around, and just can't seem to understand it's validity. You see, standard pressure 9x19 and .40 S&W both have the same SAAMI pressure specs... that is 35,000 PSI. Actually, 9mm +P is higher pressure than any .40 S&W load, and even surpasses 10mm pressures at 38,500 psi. So, what makes you believe that the .40 equates shooting +P+ all of the time?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
  24. fmcdave

    fmcdave Member

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    Fastbolt, thanks a lot for the information. That was very helpful.

    After shooting for 35 years I have come to the conclusion that every gun fails from time to time. For me, this means to add failure clearing to my standard practice shooting. I'm an engineer, and while I spend my career developing aircraft systems I can honestly say that regardless of the reliability...we spent a LOT of time documenting failure recovery processes.

    The standard for critical avionics failures (like those that do auto-land) is 10E-9 per hour of usage. This is one failure every 100,000,000 hours of use. Mathematically, it means it should never happen. That said, we analyze all of the potential failures and assume they will happen and where possible, develop operational procedures to deal with the failure (where possible is a big deal, if a wing falls off; the operational procedure is to pray).

    Typical reliability is more on the order of 10E-3. In that case, we develop training procedures and drills to mitigate the failure. These become part of the flight crew initial and recurrent training.

    So, that means that when you are practicing, you need to consider adding drills to cover:
    - Stovepipe ejection failures
    - Failure to feed (like the round jams against the feed ramp.
    - Failure to go bang

    Just my thoughts.
     
  25. Deaf Smith

    Deaf Smith Member

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    Dang FB, my Glock 17 I used in competition has over 100,000 rounds and I've never replaced ANYTHING except the recoil spring and the slide lock spring (it broke once.)

    But I have no doubt my Glock 27 takes a beating everytime I shoot it. Much more than the 17.

    I suspect we should look at the Subcompact Glocks like the K frame .357s. Shoot milder ammo in practice and keep it loaded with full power loads.

    Deaf
     
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