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Gods speed to the victims & city of Boston.But I have to ask this

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by husker, Apr 15, 2013.

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  1. highorder

    highorder Member

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    The scary thing today is how the media asserts baseless guestimates as FACTS, only to silently edit them later to "clean up" a story.

    The day of the legitimate retraction with apologies is gone.

    The days of legitimate journalism are gone.
     
  2. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    In my experience this is what leads to many of the conspiracy theories.
     
  3. bigdaa

    bigdaa member

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    Yup, give this one a bit of time to settle. There will be security tapes of all sorts to pour through in order to pinpoint the perps in action.

    The MSM will be swimming in hypothesis trying to conjure something unholy out of it.

    Prepare to put your dukes up and fight the real menace and defend freedoms from further erosion.




    The 8 year old buy dying while waiting for his father to finish the race................

    I want expedient and final death for all perps involved.

    God Rest these poor people's souls, especially Him.
     
  4. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    It isn't that the media can't get the story right. It is that the information about the story that they receive is continually changing. They report what they learn. That is how developing stories work.
     
  5. Sapper771

    Sapper771 Member

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    Not an expert, but also leaning toward black powder. I only saw one video, and it was a bit blurry.

    What got my attention was the two bombs did not go off together. Makes me think that the first bomb was expected to push the crowd into the second bomb. The other bombs make me think that they were for first responders. Saw these types of tactics used in Iraq. Could have been a foul up though.

    I am also curious as to the initiation system used. That can tell you a lot about who your dealing with.

    From the amount of blood on the sidewalk , I would say that there was some sort of shrapnel involved.



    The Victims and Families will be in my prayers. Hopefully the terrorist will be caught and punished excessively.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  6. woodnbow

    woodnbow Member

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    They just report everything they can get thier hands on and publish corrections later, and of course those corrections then become grist for the conspiracy theorists mills...
     
  7. TheOld Man

    TheOld Man Member

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    They had a Senator from...somewhere.. on the news. He was saying that this was the work of right-wing extremists of the Timothy McVeigh ilk, or possibly the Tea Party.
    In the meantime I'm going to stock up on black powder for my shooting this summer. I may have to go back to 3-2-1.
     
  8. pohill

    pohill Member

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    To say that "This is a very clear failure on all security" is ridiculous. How do you secure a 26 mile course in one of the most liberals states in the country (or anywhere)? Of course they checked the rubbish barrels. In a free society, if the government fails to protect people, they bitch. If the government takes away freedoms in the name of security, people bitch. That is the premise of self defense - be prepared to take care of yourself and do not expect, or require, the government to do it, or to be able to do it.
     
  9. foghornl

    foghornl Member

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    In one of the videos I saw, the second explosion was very much white smoke with a lot of 'orange' flame.

    Isn't black powder muzzle flash more 'orangey' than say modern smokeless powder? That is what leans me toward a BP-type of bomb.
     
  10. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    It was the first thought to hit me when I saw footage of the blasts/smoke.

    Crap.
     
  11. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    Quite easily, trashcan's is one of the top 10 items to check as they are havens for crap like this. I bet you $ none of them were checked. Most of those dont even have the slightest concept of what real security is. You dont even have to take away jack from the citizens to be secure either. It is such a trivial matter it is not funny.
     
  12. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    I too thought it could be something like such a powder.

    The blast was not typical of a high order explosive which would be the typical ideal choice for bomb use.
    The incomplete combustion, smoke, and color and speed of the flash all seemed to suggest something closer to a propellant or low order explosive.

    The damage also seemed to rely primarily on a lot of shrapnel and had relatively minimal blast. That people within 10 yards walked away, and some did not even have ruptured eardrums also further suggests it was not a high explosive.
    That is important because someone making something ideal from scratch would probably be using a high explosive. While someone making due with something already available would be more prone to use something like black powder.
    It also gives some insight into the likely capabilities of the individual or group, and that they are probably not capable of manufacturing high explosives which can readily be done in our society full of industrial chemicals. This suggests a less sophisticated criminal. Which one could speculate further means even more likelyhood of a lone wolf or less sophisticated organization. A less sophisticated loner with less experience or lacking leadership with explosive experience like a lot of the foreign organized terror groups would have provided.


    The federal investigators should be able to tell from a profile of the residue what category of explosive it was and whether it was black powder, a substitute, or smokeless, or something else relatively quickly. Something generating that much smoke left a ton of residue to test.



    Additional reports just now seem to suggest they were pressure cookers. This is of course from the same media (perhaps briefed or leaked it from law enforcement) that said 2-5 additional unexploded bombs were found yesterday and which was later retracted.
    A strong vessel such as that to contain buildup of pressure and the fact that it was still a relatively small blast suggests even more strongly a relatively weak explosive.
    That implies even more strongly it could be something like gunpowder.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  13. AethelstanAegen

    AethelstanAegen Member

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    Where are you guys getting that the bomb was in a trashcan? From the injuries we've heard about so far, I'm inclined to think it was sitting on the sidewalk in a bag. Unless you're living in a police state (and probably not even then), you'd better get comfortable with the idea that you can't be 100% protected. The trade off between safety for enhanced liberties is generally something we're okay with...so let's not start ranting against the police. Many plots have been foiled, but they can't stop them all. In my experience the same people who are first to cry "security failure" after an event like this are also the same people that will rant about government expenditure and cut funding for intelligence/law enforcement (Congress is a big fan of that tactic). It's certainly a tragedy but let's put the blame where it really belongs, with the terrorist, and not the police trying very hard to prevent things like this from happening.


    Let's really hope it wasn't blackpowder or any kind of gunpowder. Though I am worried it might have been since it doesn't seem to have been a very high powered explosion.
     
  14. rondog

    rondog Member

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    One of the biggest problems with information is the media's inherent craving to "get the scoop" over the other guys, and be the first to get any tidbit of info out to the public, whether it's factual or not. TV, radio, newspapers, wire services, etc. - all of them are clambering all over each other to beat the rest to the punch and tell it to you first.

    You could just make something up at the scene, tell it to the nearest reporter, and it'll be on the air within minutes. "This just in....." How many different death numbers did you hear yesterday, before they settled on three? And there's STILL nothing clear about whether an AR15 was used at Sandy Hook or not. There's more that says one WAS used, but I'm still reading accounts that one was NOT used. Who the hell knows.....

    Even our local newscasts seem to be starting their broadcasts just a little bit sooner, so their news can be on before the other stations. The news is supposed to start at 10, but sometimes it'll start at 9:58. Gets irritating. Trying to watch the last of something, then switch over to the news channel and the news is already on and leaving you behind.
     
  15. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    IF something like smokeless, black or equivalent powder was used, we all might then have a tendency to think that the gun-grabbers will next focus on restricting the availability and/or access to a bottle of 777 or W231.

    I do not intend to minimize the death of three and the maiming of hundreds of innocent people at all. Seeing the face of Martin Richard makes me want to never again let go of my little kids.

    It's just that, again IF these improvised devices used such components, this actually illustrates the impotence of these components compared to say, the high explosives used in suicide vests and car bombs in Israel.
     
  16. zimmerstutzen

    zimmerstutzen Member

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    The olympic park bomber used nails around the explosive.

    This person apparently didn't use anything. which says he didn't study his subject.

    The eight seconds between blasts would have been enough time to dial the second phone/detonator.

    Probably used over the counter stuff, like Pyroduh, or 777, not black powder.
     
  17. rondog

    rondog Member

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    An ANFO bomb would have been devastating, and a helluva lot cheaper to build than a blackpowder bomb. Look at what a truckload of ANFO did to the Murrah Building in OKC.
     
  18. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    Unreliable media, combined with what I have seen a doctor or two give statements on about things removed from patients suggests nails and/or ball bearings were used.
    A high volume of similar items removed from patients not present in the environment in quantity suggests they were part of the bomb.


    Yes, and the well organized foreign groups would have been likely to teach them how to improvise high explosives from very widely available things in the USA. Some less stable than others, but all much more powerful.
    The lack of such training or material in the explosive (assuming that is the case) is more suggestive of a lone wolf, which could in fact being even worse for us. Because there is a higher percentage it will be some non middle eastern US citizen that will create more of a focus on restrictions of citizens versus a focus on such terrorist groups.


    From video evidence of the blast I would determine it was a low power explosive.
    If the media is to be believed and it was pressure cookers in black duffel bags, the strong container and weak blast does point heavily towards something like such powder and nails.


    The Boston area is also one of the most educated and influential parts of the country and with dense numbers, if they are emotionally mobilized towards nationwide restrictions it would be a good battle to defeat them.
    Quickly joined by New York, and then all the gun grabbers if they see an opportunity for any type of greater restrictions on arms.

    In the shorter term it would also probably result in a powder buying panic, and whatever is left not already bought from the ammo panic would probably be sold and back ordered for months.
    Oops I may have just started the powder panic of 2013.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  19. pohill

    pohill Member

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    I never said it was in a trashcan. I was saying that of course trashcans and everywhere else possible were checked. I was referring to the statement that there was a "clear failure of all security".
     
  20. BlackNet

    BlackNet Member

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    I read this am it was in a trash can, now USA today is saying backpack on the ground pressure cooker and gun powder.

    So I guess you can have police, public etc walking by and never question suspicious things like that.
     
  21. AethelstanAegen

    AethelstanAegen Member

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    I'm right there with you, pohill. I wasn't referring to your post but rather to several other posts where people claimed the bomb was in an unchecked trashcan.

    What do you expect on a crowded street? Given the small explosion, it's likely most of the crowd had a bag about the size of the device. If anyone even saw it they likely thought it belonged to one of the poor people standing next to it. Hindsight is 20/20 so I really don't think we can armchair quarterback this one as if there was a gross security failure. Security resources are limited and many of the methods for preventing something like this would have citizens up in arms over invasion of privacy. In an open society like ours, you have to accept that most places are very soft, easy targets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  22. plunge

    plunge Member

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    looked like a couple IED blasts I saw in helmand afghanistan, big white cloud, not a lot of fire, stuff blown everywhere, but they were about 100 pounds, so much larger than this.
     
  23. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    plunge said:
    A large part of ied clouds from high explosives in dry or desert environments is dust combining with the smoke and gas and not much actual smoke itself. Many quality high explosive have more complete combustion/detonation. Resulting in less dense smoke or particulates.

    The quantity of smoke quantity of flash, and low speed and intensity of the blast is very different from high explosives used in most foreign IEDs (many of which are made from old artillery shells or other military ordinance.)
    This bomb appears to have relied on shrapnel alone to do most damage even in a tight crowd. Even the amputations were probably a result of the density of ball bearings/nails at close range rather than blast.
    Keep in mind it was also on a clean city street not in a dusty environment. All of that smoke came from the small bombs, and it was a lot.

    I would say it is very different.
    Compare it to the carnage of some of the suicide vests used in some attacks. Which are light enough for even a small stature woman to mange to carry and tear a crowd apart far worse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2013
  24. alsaqr

    alsaqr Member

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    Did EOD stuff for 20+ years in the US Army and another 30 years as a civilian EOD/UXO type. i've made and blown hundreds of pipe bombs using about every type of readily available smokeless powder, blackpowder and blackpowder substitute. Never blew up a pressure cooker though.

    The blast has the characteristics of blackpowder except for one thing i'll get to later. Theres lots of white smoke and little brisance (blast effect). A witness commented on the sulfur smell. The first bomb was probably in a trashcan: The smoke plume rose in a column.

    The color of the fireball is not quite right for a pipe bomb loaded with blackpowder. Not sure what a effect a weaker container like a pressure cooker would have on the fireball color.
     
  25. plunge

    plunge Member

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    Not many IED's in afghanistan are made of ordnance anymore. Mostly HME
     
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