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Going +1 by manually feeding the chamber

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by beatledog7, Nov 26, 2012.

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  1. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    Another thread in general discussions... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=686724...bled over into this topic.

    Which semi-auto pistols allow for manually loading a round into the chamber then releasing the slide before inserting a full mag? The purposes of this, of course, are to go +1 without the need to load the first round from a Barney mag and to avoid setback from re-chambering a round in the normal fashion.

    The other thread discusses a few that work, and a few whose extractor (not ejector) could be damaged. Is there, or can we build, a definitive list of the ones where this works and doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  2. hentown

    hentown Member

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    It's the extractor, not the ejector, and I can't think of a good reason to do what you suggest.
     
  3. Owen

    Owen Moderator Emeritus

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    well. Off the top of my head, the Desert Eagle, with is AR-15 type bolt should be good to go.
     
  4. 56hawk

    56hawk Member

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    I'm pretty sure the Luger and HK P7 can be loaded this way as the round is feed in front of the extractor instead of under it.
     
  5. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    It should be relatively safe for any gun with a hinged/spring-loaded extractor, but its still going to be a bit harder on the part than letting the round come from the mag.

    I would do it if it was an emergency but overall you're better off to strip the top round off the mag, pull it, then top it back off.
     
  6. Naybor

    Naybor Member

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    I do it with my LCP all the time, but never thought of it hurting the extractor? Maybe..........
     
  7. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    Wow, really good question from the OP. I've never thought of it hurting anything before until now. I can say this though, I've been single loading the +1 round for many years and have yet to break, or other wise ruin an extractor.

    GS
     
  8. ku4hx

    ku4hx Member

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    Glock warns against loading the chamber and allowing the slide to go into battery. And there's a good reason for that. I have one bent extractor and two that are chipped to varying degrees.

    Extractors are cheap, and I now have three "spares" that will work in a pinch. But a gun used for self defense shouldn't have damaged parts that will "get by in a pinch" if at all possible.
     
  9. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    It helps if you understand where the warning/procedure come from. This is one of many that come down to us from the manual of arm of the 1911.

    I remember taking a handgun class from a retired Marine who trained security details. He told the class that his experience was that 1911 extractors regularly fail after extended malfunction clearance drills of Type 3 jams (double feed) as it forced the extractor to jump over the rim of the chambers cartridge. He said that that failure stopped when they were issued the M9.

    The problem with the 1911 extractors is twofold...1) the hook of the extractor crashing into the back of the case and 2) the extractor being bent further outward than designed.

    All the Berettas with tip-up barrels are safe to single load into the barrel as are most other Berettas. As already mentioned, the Desert Eagle, will also do this without damage.

    The H&K P7 feeds rounds straight from the magazine into the chamber...the round does not rise up under the extractor hook as it is fed from the magazine...so it's extractor is designed to snap over the cartridge rim. But then the P7 will also function without an extractor at all
     
  10. mgmorden

    mgmorden Member

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    Yep - my Glock was bough used (so I have no idea how it was treated in its previous life), but it was experiencing a jam about once every 50-60 rounds and the brass that it did eject was flying all over the place.

    Had an armorer check it out and sure enough it was a chipped extractor. This was at a GSSF event so it was replaced at no cost (that's an excellent service that I must give Glock props for), and I'm not sure exactly why the extractor was chipped, but they certainly can be damaged so I'd prefer to avoid any undue stress.
     
  11. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

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    I have done it with darn near every semi auto I have owned. It's a bad habit that I have worked on changing, because it is rough on extractors. Never had a failure as a result of this, but no reason to tempt fate with poor gun handling.
     
  12. thefish

    thefish Member

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    I can t speak to which guns will allow it, but why not load a full mag, load the chamber, drop the mag, the top the mag off.

    Is it just the inconvenience of the processes?

    I do know the Taurus pt709 specifically says not to load one manually as it will damage the extractor.
     
  13. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    Always feed one from the mag and you don't have to worry about it. Then top off the mag.
     
  14. SSN Vet

    SSN Vet Member

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    With my PT-111, I can chamber a round manually, and then as I ease the slide forward, tip the muzzle up, le the round slide about half way out of the chamber until it hits the breach face, then as I slowly pull the slide back again, the back end of the cartridge will fall down and under the extractor, at which time I can push the slide shut, re-chambering the round.

    Sounds complicated to describe, but is actually quite easy to do.
     
  15. Jim K

    Jim K Member

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    In spite of the millions of posts saying either "it can't be done" or "don't do it" or "something will break", the GI 1911 can be loaded exactly that way. The Army tested it in 1911 because of concern that if the magazine were lost the gun would be inoperable in an emergency. A properly made extractor will not be damaged; the current crop of cast tin junk extractors might be damaged.

    Jim
     
  16. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    Jim, I have learned a lot from you over the years, and I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience. It pains me to disagree with you on any point.

    But..having a bit over 20 years worth of direct experience...when the US Military says that something "may be done" in an emergency, that means if you have no other option, you may go ahead and do it now to save your life, and we will worry about fixing the equipment later.... it is a very pragmatic approach, and is a breath of fresh air, considering many military policies. That doesn't mean it's a good idea, and it dang sure doesn't mean you can or should do it every day.

    Disclaimer: I don't believe that precise verbiage is written anywhere, but it is training doctrine, at least in NavAir. I can supply numerous examples of supporting evidence, and I would have to believe that similar doctrines exist in everything from submariners to surface warfare in the Navy, and I would imagine that parallel doctrines exist in the ground warfare for Marines and Army, and similarly, with the inferior air service (USAF)

    JK about the USAF...maybe. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  17. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Most manufactures discourage it.

    Not because of extractor damage, as much as having a round fire out of battery.
    And that will ruin your whole day while you go have the brass fragments dug out of your face at the ER.

    It is possible for the extractor itself, or some other protrusion on the breach face to hit the primer if the round is not all the way in the chamber, or if it slips back out part way when you drop the slide on it.


    But what are you trying to gain anyway??

    Many guns feed goofy or not very well with the extra pressure of a topped off mag pressing up against the slide and slowing it down.

    And if you really need one more round?
    You probably really need a higher-cap gun, or just way more more practice changing mags fast!

    rc
     
  18. Dmath

    Dmath Member

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    If the extractor is external, in many cases you can press down on the back end of it with a finger or a fingernail and ease it over the chambered round and get it into battery that way. I don't see how doing this will harm either the gun nor the round in the chamber.

    If it has an internal extractor, as in the 1911, then there might be some harm in forcing the cartridge into battery.
     
  19. Steve C

    Steve C Member

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    Feeding a round into the chamber by hand and then closing the action over it thus making the extractor siip over the rim can be hard on extractors causing weakening and breakage of the part. Can't really see why someone would want to do this on a regular basis except as perhaps in an emergency when a magazine wasn't available.

    Same results can be obtained with less potential damage to the extractor if one simply feeds a round from the magazine into the camber and then tops off the mag.
     
  20. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    The only one I've ever had in which the manufacturer actually offered that as an option is the Grendel P10. For those of you not familiar with this one, it's a distant ancester of today's Kel-Tec line. The P-10 was chambered in .380ACP, and had a non-removable internal, double-stack magazine designed to hold ten rounds. The manufacturer touted the gun as a "ten-plus-one" capacity pocket pistol. To top off the gun, you loaded the magazine to capacity (through the ejector port), then placed the eleventh round in the chamber. Then, you pushed down on the top-most round in the magazine to let the slide pass over it, removed your finger, and finished closing the slide.
    I've had the gun since around 1988, but admittedly, have not fired but maybe a couple hundred rounds through it. In that time, I think I might have actually done this twice. I've grown fond of my fingers.
     
  21. 1911Tuner

    1911Tuner Moderator Emeritus

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    Gonna align with Jim on this one.

    The 1911 is a controlled feed design and the case rim should be picked up by the extractor from below...

    But...

    The extractor is designed to tolerate emergency single loading in the event of a lost or damaged magazine. The proper angle on the nose of the extractor expedites this. Regularly practiced, can it shorten the extractor's service life? Sure...but sometimes things happen that supersede any concerns over the equipment. The extractor will tolerate this for dozens, if not hundreds of repetitions. They're not that fragile.

    Of course, this assumes that the extractor is made of good steel, properly hardened and drawn to a spring temper...that the angle is to spec...and that the extractor doesn't have an excessive amount of deflection. In short, it means that if the gun is properly built to spec, it'll be okay. The problem is that some present-day manufacturers seem to make up the specs as they go.

    It's not moving the extractor too far starboard that does the damage. It's the impact, and the angle on the nose that determines how well the extractor will tolerate it.

    Several years ago, high-end pistolsmith and fellow mad scientist Ned Christiansen devised a little machine that moved the extractor the same distance as it would when climbing a case rim. He turned it on, and went home for the night. The next day, he removed the extractor and installed it in a gun and headed for the range. It functioned fine.

    And just as an FYI...If the nose angle is to spec, there's no need to drop the round into the chamber and let fly with the slide. The slide can be eased forward and the claw snapped over the rim with a firm push with one thumb. I've seen a few snap over with no more than spring pressure...or with just a little help.

    Do I recommend it? Nope. It's a controlled feed design. Can it be done occasionally without concern...with a pistol and an extractor that's built to spec? Sure.
     
  22. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    I single load all the time, but I do not let the slide slam home from locked. I know each of my guns and how much force is required for the extractor to snap over the rim. Some will almost do it from recoil spring pressure alone, others require some assistance, others still a touch of momentum. NONE of them need the full side velocity.

    In short, I see absolutely no problem with single loading the chamber on any firearm, but I do see a problem with letting the slide go on a chambered round from full lock.
     
  23. sawdeanz

    sawdeanz Member

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    Just to clarify the reason the op wants to know is that in the other thread we are talking about bullet setback that can occur when u repeatedly rack a round from a full mag. Some in that thread say that loading from a mag with one round will prevent this.
     
  24. orionengnr

    orionengnr Member

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    Tuner--
    Thank you. I have learned easily as much from you as Jim, and if both say I'm wrong...case closed. :)

    When I said this:
    I probably should have highlighted this part:
    So, I don't think I am in fundamental disagreement. I may be a bit more adamant about not doing it on my guns unless it really is an emergency...basically because I view it as abusive, just like dropping the clutch at six grand. Can you do it? Sure, and some do. I don't, unless I have a compelling reason to.
    Better? :)
     
  25. GCMkc

    GCMkc Member

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    THIS! Be careful! I was loading my Browning Hi Power one time and put a round in the chamber then let the slide go from full lock and that puppy went off. Luckily it was pointed in a safe direction and nobody was hurt. SUPER SCARY.

    I always load from a magazine now.
     
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