Going prone like in this old army training manual?
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Riomouse911
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Not intentionally 
Stay safe.
Stay safe.
troy fairweather
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Looks like it kills you after getting prone, a little risky lol.
Random 8
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If you shoot an EIC match, where you go from standing to prone on the clock before beginning your firing string, it is similar. The main difference is you start from a crouch and already have the sling rigged up. The ones who don't pretend they are in combat are the ones that end up with rushed strings or saved rounds.
entropy
Member
I mashed my right knee up like that in Basic when I tucked in behind a nice big tree, only to kneel hard right onto a large burl just sticking up from the dirt. It was at night, couldn't see the burl, but I sure felt it. Went to sick call in the morning, they gave me a cortisone shot and drove me out to the day's training.
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.455_Hunter
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I definitely remember using my rifle to assist in quickly dropping to the prone position. If it was this direct technique, I am not sure.
danez71
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I never have but a buddy of mine occasionally showed me a much quicker version.
He start with a modified step 1; difference being that he'd be stubbing his foot into a rock or something.
Then he'd skip steps 2-5 and go right to final step 6.
He wanted me to try his version a couple times but i tend to prefer not face-planting.
He start with a modified step 1; difference being that he'd be stubbing his foot into a rock or something.
Then he'd skip steps 2-5 and go right to final step 6.
He wanted me to try his version a couple times but i tend to prefer not face-planting.
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I have, well, not with a 1903. I've done it during training carrying an M-16 but it works basically the same.
trackskippy
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Thats pretty much how we were taught as kids to go prone when shooting. Another variation is to just drop to both knees and then plant the butt of the rifle as you go forward.
Another method Ive seen taught is to drop to your knees and instead of planting the rifle butt, you use your off hand under you to catch your fall. Im thinking this was probably developed for the AR type rifles. I dont see the slider type stocks holding up to well to the "planting the butt" method.
If you watch a lot of the old WWII/Korea movies, you will often see thats how they are getting into position when they go down. Im guessing a lot of the extras were former vets and thats how they were taught. Ive seen a couple of examples that would have made a drill instructor proud.
Another method Ive seen taught is to drop to your knees and instead of planting the rifle butt, you use your off hand under you to catch your fall. Im thinking this was probably developed for the AR type rifles. I dont see the slider type stocks holding up to well to the "planting the butt" method.
If you watch a lot of the old WWII/Korea movies, you will often see thats how they are getting into position when they go down. Im guessing a lot of the extras were former vets and thats how they were taught. Ive seen a couple of examples that would have made a drill instructor proud.
Charlie98
Member
We were taught basically the same thing, with the A2 stocked M16A1's, but we pretty much quit it... we were tired of having to dig the mud and dirt out of the air hole in the stock.
I have seen very old pictures in the Arms and Man of American Military/Civilians going into position and it looked as though they using that form. At the time, I recall reading of one shooting game, where the line was put into order, command to load, etc, and the target came up for 20 seconds, and the line had to shoot until the target went down. They also did not use mats! A rock under the elbow would hurt. Ever heard the term "gravel belly solider"? The lore was the range ground keepers deliberately spread gravel out on the line for the fun of watching others squirm in pain.
I did shoot rattle battle which was 50 second periods from when the targets rose from the berm. That game started at 600 yards prone rapid fire, then 500 yards prone rapid fire, 300 yards sitting rapid, and 200 yards standing rapid fire. Rattle battle, the team was issued a certain number of rounds, the hits at 600 and 500 were worth more than the hits closer. The goal was to accumulate as many points as possible.
I can't remember a time rolling into position as the manual shows it. When I went prone rapid fire, I dropped to my knees, put the right hand down, and came down slow enough that I did not jar myself hard. I have had, and have seen, enough sear failures, where the hammer follows the bolt, or the firing pin follows the bolt down, that I would never intentionally drop test a match rifle on its butt, because there is always the chance the sear engagement would fail!
Here is what happens when you drop your SIG on its butt
I believe the reason you see drop and fall techniques being shown in manuals is due to the post WW1 tactical battle theories of the US Army. The US Army came out of WW1, a war where battlefields looked like this for years, and where artillery caused 60 % ish of the causalities, machine guns ruled the near fighting, and green gangrene was a common killer,
and post WW1, the Superior Board came up with the doctrine that what the American Army needed to win wars, was more rifle marksmanship. This was heavily influenced by the failed pre war theories on the Cult of the Offensive. The cult of the "Elan". So you see between the wars, this emphasis on offensive small squad tactics, mobility, and accurate long range rifle fire. The rifle squad was going to rush up on the enemy, when they encountered enemy fire, flop down, lay accurate, long range rifle fire and suppress the opposition. And of course, superior accurate shooting would quickly render the enemy dead, after which the squad would get up and take the position.
I think these tactics were primarily based on the senior Regular Army Officer's experiences on the American Frontier against Indians, the Cult of the Elan, and the actual experience of barbed wire, mud, machine guns, artillery, and tanks of WW1 were more or less ignored.
This paper will give a good idea of the pre WW1 French tactical ideas (Grandmaison’s) that still influenced American military thinkers after the war.
No other Law: The French Army and the Doctrine of the Offensive
The Grandmasisons wanted to attack, attack always and everywhere, no plan other to find the enemy and attack.
I did shoot rattle battle which was 50 second periods from when the targets rose from the berm. That game started at 600 yards prone rapid fire, then 500 yards prone rapid fire, 300 yards sitting rapid, and 200 yards standing rapid fire. Rattle battle, the team was issued a certain number of rounds, the hits at 600 and 500 were worth more than the hits closer. The goal was to accumulate as many points as possible.
I can't remember a time rolling into position as the manual shows it. When I went prone rapid fire, I dropped to my knees, put the right hand down, and came down slow enough that I did not jar myself hard. I have had, and have seen, enough sear failures, where the hammer follows the bolt, or the firing pin follows the bolt down, that I would never intentionally drop test a match rifle on its butt, because there is always the chance the sear engagement would fail!
Here is what happens when you drop your SIG on its butt
I believe the reason you see drop and fall techniques being shown in manuals is due to the post WW1 tactical battle theories of the US Army. The US Army came out of WW1, a war where battlefields looked like this for years, and where artillery caused 60 % ish of the causalities, machine guns ruled the near fighting, and green gangrene was a common killer,
and post WW1, the Superior Board came up with the doctrine that what the American Army needed to win wars, was more rifle marksmanship. This was heavily influenced by the failed pre war theories on the Cult of the Offensive. The cult of the "Elan". So you see between the wars, this emphasis on offensive small squad tactics, mobility, and accurate long range rifle fire. The rifle squad was going to rush up on the enemy, when they encountered enemy fire, flop down, lay accurate, long range rifle fire and suppress the opposition. And of course, superior accurate shooting would quickly render the enemy dead, after which the squad would get up and take the position.
I think these tactics were primarily based on the senior Regular Army Officer's experiences on the American Frontier against Indians, the Cult of the Elan, and the actual experience of barbed wire, mud, machine guns, artillery, and tanks of WW1 were more or less ignored.
This paper will give a good idea of the pre WW1 French tactical ideas (Grandmaison’s) that still influenced American military thinkers after the war.
No other Law: The French Army and the Doctrine of the Offensive
The Grandmasisons wanted to attack, attack always and everywhere, no plan other to find the enemy and attack.
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This ^^^
It works, it does require some athletic ability which I no longer possess or desire to demonstrate, and I'm not alone. We were taught this in Basic in the late 70s and early 80's, simple technique. You do need to practice it and getting hurt is a matter of self awareness.
Goes to why we don't have C rations in metal cans in our cargo pockets any more. Drop on one of those and it's a bruise for the week. An MRE is just more padding. Also goes to having issue hard knee caps in pockets sewn right onto the outside of the pants leg now. The trick there is to get them to fit over your particular knee location, Lord knows the tolerance in human specifications aren't tight. ; )
On soft sand or loam, loose gravel, it works great. Concrete, asphalt, hard pack, not so much of course. Nobody plays much stick and ball or contact sports on paved surfaces. Pomt being that doctrine up to the time we started wearing plate carriers was to drop to the prone where the odds of taking a round with no plate are much less. Now we teach squaring up to fire, but it's more a reaction posture, not a tactical one. If you can cover and conceal do it.
edit to add you can add a vent hole to a buffer tube to expedite air passage as the buffer and bolt compress it. A series stocks require some imagination, carbine stocks are easy peasy. Goes to a lot of folks these days don't even think of going to ground for cover now. I believe this is an error in tactics brought on by too much focus on 3Gun and competition shoots. Put those stations out there in the real world and then start the clock. Rain or shine.
There are faster, better, less painful ways to get prone.
I recently posted about doing a drill shooting one shot standing then dropping to prone and engaging two 400 yd targets. I was averaging 8 seconds but am pretty sure I could get it to 5. It would take twice that long doing it as described in the pic above.
About 3rd or 4th post in this thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...cope-and-offset-red-dot.895802/#post-12073762
The way I got standing to prone in High Power/cmp was knees first then moving forward to prone and I did it slowly and smoothly and precisely because getting back into the Natural Point of Aim you established during prep time is worth a few seconds. Probably not applicable to just randomly jumping on the ground to shoot on a battlefield.
but it does matter what you’re doing. If you’re running you’re going to go knees first then slide forward into prone. If you’re standing it’s better to do a burpee and drop straight and kick legs out backwards
I recently posted about doing a drill shooting one shot standing then dropping to prone and engaging two 400 yd targets. I was averaging 8 seconds but am pretty sure I could get it to 5. It would take twice that long doing it as described in the pic above.
About 3rd or 4th post in this thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...cope-and-offset-red-dot.895802/#post-12073762
The way I got standing to prone in High Power/cmp was knees first then moving forward to prone and I did it slowly and smoothly and precisely because getting back into the Natural Point of Aim you established during prep time is worth a few seconds. Probably not applicable to just randomly jumping on the ground to shoot on a battlefield.
but it does matter what you’re doing. If you’re running you’re going to go knees first then slide forward into prone. If you’re standing it’s better to do a burpee and drop straight and kick legs out backwards
shoobe01
Member
Yeah, was taught that once, not as comfortable as dropping to both knees at the same time, but using the gun to brace your upper body and be ready to shoot is still a thing. Harder with a pistol grip and fragile rifle than old wood straight stock days, but I did this just the other week with the wind from rotors at my back no less.
Less fun as you get older, bounding up from it is much slower at my age than it is for the 20-somethings.
Less fun as you get older, bounding up from it is much slower at my age than it is for the 20-somethings.
herrwalther
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It works. After a few practice tries you find how your body gets into prone best and fastest. I have plenty of ankle damage so I don't and never have used the exact pictured method. If you wonder why there is a manual on how to go prone, there is a reason. Plenty of people who join the military are not all that bright. I watched a guy who was told to go prone and he practically did a cartoon jump in the air to fall down like a belly flop onto a tile floor. Hit his chin and knocked out a few teeth. He got yelled at for getting blood on the floor and got sent to dental.
WrongHanded
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I've seen it before. I've tried it. Not for me.
I would think, after enough groups of soldiers took fire, and the group then came up with their heads a foot above the ground, in line with the sights, that the survivors who were not immediately hit in the head by the enemy, figured out that staying down was a good idea.
I worked with a Vietnam veteran. On the very first contact with the enemy, who had laid an ambush, he fell forward, in the direction of the NVA, probably having been taught the sort of tactics where you come up firing. The rest of the platoon moved in the other direction. Bud survived, but never went into the field again, for the NVA shot up his left arm and he has a permanently short, crooked, damaged left arm, and was discharged for his disability.
If the enemy is within range of you, you are within range of the enemy.
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GunnyUSMC
Member
Done it plenty of times, in training, qualifying on the range and in combat. The key is to use the butt of the rifle to break your fall. (That’s the easiest way to put it) It’s not something that old men should do. Things hurt more as we get older.
Things hurt more as we get older.Yeah it was clear from the pic in OP that the point of the technique was using the butt of rifle to slow your descent. That may have been reasonable then, but when you consider how much more people weigh today, and how much more gear is on their back, and the relative strength of the wood stock vs aluminum buffer tube, I’m gonna say it’s a bad idea if you have expectations beyond rack grade accuracy today. And if you’re a civilian with no pack but extra flab and a plastic carbine stock on a cheap extruded tube instead of “mil spec” it’s prob an even worse idea as even a dent in that tube will stop the rifles ability to cycle.
I’d be interested to see if the mil still teaches that with M4s.
I’d be interested to see if the mil still teaches that with M4s.
Armorer 101
Member
Yep, been there done that, have the T shirt, coffee cup and beer mug. Shot on a military rifle team in military rifle matches? We normally shot the standard military book positions. With practice, none of the positions are difficult if done correctly, until you get buggered up. Then some, like squatting are a problem on a bad knee day.
d2wing
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Yup. Learned it with the M-14 in 1967, basic at Fort Lewis. It worked great with the M-14. I'd be leery of it with an AR. Or my own rifle.. I don't recall doing it with an M-16 but I may have in Jungle Training at Fort Dix in 2 feet of snow. I may recall dropping to our knees first with the M-16, not sure.
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