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Going to war--which ACOG?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by stiletto raggio, Nov 13, 2006.

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  1. stiletto raggio

    stiletto raggio Member

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    I am deploying in several months. I am serving as an MP platoon leader in the Army and will be doing about every type of mission you can imagine: working with IPs, cordon and search ops, convoy security, etc. I have decided to get an ACOG for several reasons, inlcuding but not limited to the excellent reputation of the optic and the sniper threat in county. I am an avid shooter and will be using this optic on one of my civilian rifles when I get back from the sandbox.

    The question is, which one should I get? I am loooking mostly at the 4x models right now. I can't decided whether I'd rather have a triangle reticle with a simple bullet-drop compensator (TA31A) or get the more complex TA31DOC with the "christmas tree" reticle and a Docter optic on top. I like the simplicity of the A model's reticle, but I still think the Docter would be faster at close range and that I would get more use out of the center-lit reticle after deployment. The down side of the TA31DOC is cost.

    The other option is to get an ACOG and then buy a JPoint and mount from EABCo.com for about $250. This would be cheaper than buying a DOC, but does the JPoint measure up to the Docter in terms of reliability?

    I already have an EOTech on one of my civilian guns, but I'd really rather have something that offers more precision at range.

    Any other recommendations for me?
     
  2. springmom

    springmom Member

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    Stupid question alert:

    You have to buy your own optics??????? :what:

    Springmom
     
  3. Dienekes

    Dienekes Member

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    You might do a little research on the compact ACOG. I got back into ARs recently after fifteen years away, acquiring a Bushmaster M4gery. I got my indoctrination on the M16 in 1966 so your eyes are no doubt better than mine these days--although with the right glasses I can still shoot irons on the M1A. But that won't last and I thought I had better get up to speed with a practical optic.

    Short version is that I went for the TA-45-2 Compact, 1.5X 24 with M16 base, amber triangle reticle. Cost was $700 plus tax. Don't have all the stats in front of me (they're online, of course) but the eye relief is consideraby better than the first gen 4x32s; field of view is very good; weight is minimal (5.9 oz.), less bulk; and while the mount still allows use of irons the line of sight is very, very little higher than with irons and so little that there's practically no difference. I think I would have preferred a red chevron or triangle, but I doubt it really matters. The amber stands out against anything including drab brown landscape and in dim light shows up until you can't really ID your target anyway. There are no ranging stadia--which I don't consider a problem with a shorty carbine anyway.

    Considering the M4 type carbines with the shorter barrel and M193 ammo are supposedly lethal (terminal fragmentation) out to about 170 yards and maybe less with M882, I didn't see much upside to more magnification (which you can get with the Compacts if you want it--at a cost in FOV, eye relief, etc.). My amber triangle is 8 MOA and I can stay in the chest area of an E tgt at 250 yards and ding 8" dia. rocks with it if I do things just right (also put a 3# Jard trigger in the carbine which you may not be able to get away with). So the low power optic will get the job done out to the maximum practical range of the weapon and cartridge. I just don't think you need additional bells and whistles. KISS and all that.

    From what I am hearing most stuff is happening within 75 yards and often much closer. At those ranges too much magnification and too little FOV is counterproductive. That is exactly where this little Compact shines. It is a both-eyes-open FAST sight and puts you on right now, no delays, nada. At 10 yards and under it lets me do center hits in around .9 sec. including reaction time. Somebody your age should make me look really, really slow. As in Sid the Sloth.

    Not to say that I can HIT them--but I can easily track flying birds and jackrabbits with this thing. Heck, Mr. Magoo could probably do it.

    I do not work for Trijicon...but I spent 22 years as an LEO and specifically bought my first CAR-15 for witness protection work--so I have some insight into what we want these things to do. If my son were headed where you are, I would advise him to think hard about a Compact 1.5.

    If you want more info feel free to PM me. Be glad to help any way I can.

    And thanks!!!
     
  4. 10-Ring

    10-Ring Member

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  5. Raygun

    Raygun Member

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    I think if I were in your position, I'd try to find an Elcan Specter DR. About the same price as the TA31DOC and performs pretty much the same functions, but looks like a more solid optic, as far as the red dot is concerned. Don't have any experience with one, but maybe someone else here has. It looks like an awesome optic.
     
  6. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Springmom, no he doesn't HAVE to buy his own optics. He just might not like what he's issued, or he may only be issued a rifle with iron sights.

    But he is:

     
  7. mmike87

    mmike87 Member

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    From what I understand, this optic has to distinct disadvantages.

    1) The external adjustable base is more prone to lose zero if the scop is impacted
    2) It's almost impossible to find. SWFA has listed it as "Sold Out for an EXTENDED period" for quite some time now.

    I wanted one of these for my FAL about 5 months ago and "settled" on a TA11 ACOG for the above reasons. I'm very happy with the ACOG and am glad I purchased it.
     
  8. BsChoy

    BsChoy Member

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    If you have had any buddies over there I would ask them what they used and how it worked. I think the K.I.S.S. way of thinking would be in order (keep it simple stupid)...oh and by no means am I saying you are stupid in case this gets misinterpreted....thank you for your service my friend.
     
  9. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

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    This is very likely what you'll get unless you're with one of the hi-speed AD
    units that issue them.
     
  10. BSlacker

    BSlacker Member

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    The JPoint is a plastic version of the Doctor. I have a JPoint mounted on a pistol and I don't think it will hold up to rough handling. :)
     
  11. mikeb3185

    mikeb3185 Member

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    dont know much about acogs but wanted to say thank you and come home safe. brother is in the sand box now, we are both airforce.
     
  12. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Member

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    Well, if you are looking for a "do-it-all" sight, I think you want the TA31DOC if you can find it. First let me qualify my advice by saying that all I do is shoot 3-gun, so take the advice with a grain of salt.

    If you anticipate shooting from a moving vehicle, the ACOG is a lot more difficult to use due to magnification, field of view and need for a consistent cheek weld. The DOC part of the TA31DOC is a reflex optic and can be used from unconventional shooting positions without a cheek weld. That makes it very nice for working from a vehicle.

    The Elcan Specter DR and the high end variables are nice advances; but they both still require consistent cheek weld for accuracy, even at 1x. The DOC gives you Aimpoint like speed and versatility and all you have to do is raise your head, no levers to flip or rings to twist.

    Also, while the reports I have seen from the Marines indicate most engagements happen inside the optimum range for a reflex sight, I think many people discount how handy it is to have magnification when acquiring and identifying targets. I know there is at least one news cameraman alive in Iraq because a Marine's ACOG let him see it was a camera pointing at him and not an empty RPG tube, even though the range was under 100yds. The other thing about an ACOG is that in a built up urban area, a reflex sight will let you shoot at someone who pops up in a window; but an ACOG will let you see INTO the room behind the window. That is a nice edge to have and I think a TA31DOC does a good job of combining the two.
     
  13. Gewehr98

    Gewehr98 Member

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    That's interesting.

    They're allowing privately-purchased optics on issued weapon systems these days? Does an NCO or officer get to review said purchases for MilSpec compatibility?

    I can see it now, somebody hangs a Leapers or BSA red dot on their M4 and can't figure out why they keep missing bad guys during engagements, or worse yet, they get popped by a jihadi because they missed. :(
     
  14. lycanthrope

    lycanthrope Member

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  15. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    In my experience, most non-permanent mods to weapons are allowed.

    And, yes, I have a buddy who's hung a $70 red dot sight on his M4. Most of those around here have M68s, but I also see ACOGs and the occasional ELCAN (mostly on 249s) as well as an EOTech or two.

    I have an M68 CCO, but I'm getting a Trijicon Accupoint TR21.

    John
     
  16. strambo

    strambo Member

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    I have the TA31A I believe (issued). It is a good optic, especially for the open spaces in A-stan. The reticle isn't bright enough at night though, not anything like a CCO...maybe mine is just dimmer than normal?

    A magnified optic is good for a PL. Not so much for shooting (not your job) but for checking things out/confirming targets etc.

    If you are the best shot and have the only magnified optic I can see engaging a sniper...just do it quick and get back to maneuvering your soldiers.

    Soldiers can buy whatever they want...their chain of command can always say they can't use it if it is junk or silly. I'd get rid of all the pistol grip only shotguns in a heartbeat (put the full stocks back on) if I was a security force CO. Good luck SR, also check out the Leupold 2.5-5X MRT SPR with illuminated reticule. More versatility and cost less than the ACOG...would have bought this if I didn't get lucky and get the ACOG issued.

    Another option is getting a 3X magnifyer and mount for the M68. That will cost about as much as the Leupold scope though. A lot less than the ACOG however.
     
  17. Zak Smith

    Zak Smith Moderator Emeritus

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    I have used ACOGs for about 4 years now.

    The TA11 has longer and more flexible eye relief than the TA31 or TA01, which means you can get acceptable sight pictures easier, faster, while on the move and from unconventional, compromised positions (e.g. rollver prone, etc).

    What it loses to the TA31 is a little field of view.. but this means you can see more "around" the optic while scanning around.

    95% of the ACOGs you see used at national-level 3Gun matches are TA11's and not TA31's for these reasons.
     
  18. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Member

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    I run the TA11 on my rifle as well; but I like the added flexibility of the tiny reflex sight for the reasons I mentioned above. However, if you aren't going for the TA31DOC, then given a choice between the TA31A and the TA11, I would go with the TA11 for the reasons Zak mentioned.
     
  19. roo_ster

    roo_ster Member

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    SR:

    Thank you for your service.

    The Trijicon ACOGs we had issued at my unit a ways back were some quality bits of equipment. Before I made my choice & spent my $$$ on it, I would want to interview some other MP PLs who have already done the job.

    If I had to choose without the benfit of their experience, I would remember that as a PL, your first duty is to lead your boys. To do so, you have to have good information about the envirionment about you. So, I would suggest an ACOG with some small bit of magnification (4x max) if you must have your optics in a weapon sight. Were I Pvt Joe Snuffy, I would likely prefer the Reflex sight.


    Alternatives
    Are you issued PVS-7 or PVS-14 NODs? If so, you might want to forego buying the ACOG and get yourself one of the 3x or 4x adapters that fit on the end of the tube to give yourself a bit more range at night. Walking with a 3x/4x adapter is for the birds, however. Better yet, see if your armorer has one stashed away and told nobody about.

    Heck, a quality pair of binos might be the ticket, if you have not been issued a pair.
     
  20. david_the_greek

    david_the_greek Member

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    perhaps it does not provide as much magnification as you desire, but a 3x magnifier and an EOTech would work pretty well. Eotech is a pretty neat product and that 3x'er would greatly help for those shots that are alittle out of the way. I dislike the run time on them though. Its probably more than adequate but I would imagine in the sand box there would be some waste of partial batteries as you wouldn't want to keep batteries around for as long since you wouldn't be 100% on your units run time (supposed to be 1100hrs with lithiums). I suppose if you could get a good stock or supply or AA's then you would be alright. great for CQB.
     
  21. possum

    possum Member

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    stiletto raggio,

    Hey brother, just wanted to let you know that whatever model you decide on you can get them from Quantico tatical In j.c and they give a 20% military discount. The owner is my old mike golf, he is a great guy and has an awesome shop. check him out. if you need directions or info pm me i will be glad to help you.
     
  22. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    Hmm.

    Questions:

    The JP mount and sight can be added to any TA11 ACOG, yes? With the correct adapter, of course.

    How much weight does it add, all told?

    How well does it work, sitting up high like that?

    Thanks,
    Mike
     
  23. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Member

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    I haven't used the JP mount with a TA11 (or the TA31DOC either). I have only got to briefly play with a TA31F w/Docter Optic using an aftermarket mount.

    Weight wise, I thought it was pretty negligible. It isn't a lot of weight to begin with and weight behind the barrel nut is hardly noticeable for the most part.

    As far as height, I actually like the height increase. It lets you use a more "heads up" stance when you are running and gunning. You just have to remember to press your cheek down on the stock and get a consistent weld when you drop down to the ACOG.
     
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